RE: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy & Communio)

Oops, I said:
" George said that it was a mistake to say that Protestants who saw communion as a "symbol only" were in error."

But meant to say:
" George said that Protestants who saw communion as a "symbol only" were in error."

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 8:53 AM
To: ASA
Subject: RE: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy & Communio)

Pastor Murray said:
" I'm not sure I can respond to this without sounding curt, but do you realize that you just effectively put the following argument; The Southern Baptist convention is the largest denomination in the United States - therefore their theology is correct."

Nonsense. George said that it was a mistake to say that Protestants who saw communion as a "symbol only" were in error. I simply said that I think that that statement was an error. The opposite of one error isn't the other error- it is the middle ground. In other words, more clearly, I accept that Christianity has the sacraments in debate- and I wouldn't say it was an error to believe either way- just a genuine disagreement. The issue of science goes back to Christine's question of what happens when communion is absorbed by the body- and a fetus. By the way, I made a mistake when I said "Southern Baptist," meant to just say "Baptist," the bigger category.

George said:
" What "most protestants" believe depends on, among other things, who one includes as "protestant." But to get to the issue itself, yes, I think that those who reject the idea that the sacraments are means of grace, however they're categorized, are wrong. For whatever it's worth, the term "protestant" was first used of those who later would be called "Lutheran"
because of their protest against imperial/Roman policy at the Diet of Speyer in 1529. The confession of the same group at the Diet of Augsburg the next year says, in its 9th article on baptism that "grace is offered through it,"
and in Article 13 that the sacraments are instituted not only as outward signs but "in order thereby to awaken and strengthen our faith."

So what you are saying is that Lutherans are the original protestants, but now Protestantism has been hijacked from them from people like the Baptists (as Baptists outnumber Lutherans as a protestant group)... probably so ... sorry about that ... ;-)

All the protestants are trying to hijack the faith from the Catholics, the original Christians, too, right? ;-)

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:24 PM
To: ASA
Subject: Re: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy & Communio)

Hi Bernie,

I'm not sure I can respond to this without sounding curt, but do you realize that you just effectively put the following argument;

The Southern Baptist convention is the largest denomination in the United States - therefore their theology is correct.

That's just WRONG on so many levels... ;)

Blessings,
Murray

Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> Pastor Murray said: " ...could you expand a little on your thinking?"
>
> I think George was saying it was a "mistake" to not think that "the sacraments are a means of grace." My point- I think most Protestants reject the notion of "the sacraments are a means of grace." The link I gave showed the protestant denominations. The largest by far is Southern Baptist, who take communion as symbolic and not as a "means of grace." Therefore, I think it is a mistake to say it is a mistake, as George did, unless one thinks that most Protestants are wrong.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 4:39 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy & Communio)
>
> Hi Bernie,
>
> I'm not clear on the significance of the link you posted in the below - could you expand a little on your thinking?
>
> Thanks,
> Murray Hogg
> Pastor, East Camberwell Baptist Church, Victoria, Australia
> Post-Grad Student (MTh), Australian College of Theology
>
> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>> George said: "The idea that there is some conflict between justification
>> by faith and belief that the sacraments are means of grace is a basic
>> error that afflicts many of the protestants you mention."
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't the majority of Protestants reject "the sacraments are means of
>> grace?" Looks that way to me, from this source:
>>
>> http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#families
>>
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't say "they have a basic error" but more likely accept it as a
>> genuine disagreement within the Christian faith.
>>
>>
>>
>> ...Bernie
>
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Received on Thu Nov 6 12:58:11 2008