Hi Greg,
The Adamic terminology seems to apply only to a first human approach and
contrary to scientific arguments for evolution. So, I suppose, using the
term "Adamic view" would be confusing and conflicting. This is because
M-Genesis recognizes homo sapiens existence prior to Adam (allowing
evolution its elbow room) and sees a literal Adam that came later as
declared in chapter 2 (made from "dust" and given something extremely
important - a living soul). Is there a nice name for this view?
A bit off topic, but someone here recently said that anthropology has more
atheist than many other fields. Is this true? My daughter is on her way to
college and is finally decided to get a degree in anthropology, so I am
curious about what she might encounter with other students.
"Coope"
From: Gregory Arago [mailto:gregoryarago@yahoo.ca]
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 10:56 PM
To: George Cooper; asa@calvin.edu; Dehler, Bernie
Subject: RE: [asa] M-Genesis
One way to approach the topic that does not dodge the question of
'literal/real' Adam and Eve is to apply the qualifier 'Adamic' to the
human-social sciences. Thus, one has an Adamic anthropology, an Adamic
sociology, an Adamic psychology, etc. The 'first man' ideology (which could
be a reality) is after all embraced by no less than four world religions,
showing it is not limited to evangelical Christianity.
G.A.
--- On Sat, 8/16/08, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Subject: RE: [asa] M-Genesis
To: "George Cooper" <georgecooper@sbcglobal.net>, "asa@calvin.edu"
<asa@calvin.edu>
Received: Saturday, August 16, 2008, 4:18 AM
George Cooper said:
"Agreed, but M-Genesis only applies this to the pre-Adamites, which evolved
and were seen on the 6th day that Moses was taken back to another huge
highlight of Earth's history. "
No- I think Genesis talks about the "first man," the first human, and his
name is Adam. If you don't think that it is Adam mentioned in Gen. 1, then
Gen. 2 makes it clear it is Adam, I think.
_____
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of George Cooper
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 1:36 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] M-Genesis
[Sorry for the delay, I've been out of state.]
Bernie said: I think there's the big picture: we can be sure (beyond a
reasonable doubt) that biological evolution happened (from apelike creature
to human) because of the DNA evidence (pseudogenes and fused human
chromosome #2).
Yes, there is substantial evidence that has caused me to accept a physical
nature for man having emerged from an amazingly natural process that is both
terrible and beautiful. Darwin was right. This view is compatible with
M-Genesis since the observer simply gave us an account of only the outcome
of these processes at important points along the way.
Once again, allow me to mention a few that demonstrate that such an
eye-witness style approach to Gen. 1 makes sense:
1) A view of the Earth when it was "without form and void". [When our
protosun accretion disk developed a gravitational knot that would have
allowed the void formed for our protoplanet to be described as stated. The
first observational evidence of an apparent protoplanetary void came earlier
this year. It is no longer wild supposition, though it is a bit early to
claim it as hard fact.]
This disk would have appeared within the background of dark space where
"darkness was on the face of the deep".
2) The protosun disk would have appeared as "waters" due to intense
illumination from its more massive, earlier-formed, bright stellar nursery
neighbors. [Fe-60 in meteorites is but one piece of evidence found to favor
such nurseries (now observed by the score in number). As for a the blueness
necessary to cause an uneducated observer to describe this vast disk as
"waters", evidence now exists that some disks will appear blue. A prominent
astronomer and expert in dust analysis has pointed out to me that some of
the edge-on accretion disks are quite red. This suggests Rayeleigh
scattering is applicable, which means the face of the disk will appear more
blue than otherwise. Our blue sky is one powerful example of this
scattering effect.]
3) "Let there be light". An enshrouded protostar does not remain shrouded
for very long. Of course, they can be very bright once the shroud breaks.
Interestingly, this light was called "Day" by God, and our "day" comes only
from Sun light. This began the energy delivery to the Solar system that
would eventually bring forth little companions for the our Creator and
designer of these processes. It was a "good" moment, indeed.
This gets us through only the first verse, but I hope the essence of
M-Genesis can be seen by any readers here as to its approach.
Bernie said: Accepting evolution for apelike creature to man is a watershed
event. Once a Christian accepts the evidence for human evolution, and
believes in God, the logical conclusion is that God used evolution as his
means for design (contrary to a YEC or OEC interpretation of the Bible).
Agreed, but M-Genesis only applies this to the pre-Adamites, which evolved
and were seen on the 6th day that Moses was taken back to another huge
highlight of Earth's history. Thus, the literal view of M-Genesis is not in
conflict with Genesis 1 and 2. This should be a huge attraction to both YEC
and OEC proponents. If the account of Genesis was that of an eye-witness
then there is no reason not to give a literal view the primary emphasis,
though we can not rule out all literary devices that might lead to other
views.
Genesis 2, taken literally, states that a living soul was given to Adam who
was specially made, breathed spiritual life into by God Himself (who is
Spirit), removed from the fabrication area and placed into a specially made
Garden that was located in a special location (high in the mountains and
away from the humanoids below, where future wives and husbands hunted and
gathered), who was given the task of doing special things like naming
animals, and was allowed to make the first spiritual mistake of eternal
consequence (ie sin).
Of course, M-Genesis is a religious "theory" and is not remotely testable
within the purview of science. It is a view that takes what science now
demonstrates as likely and compares it to scripture. Surprisingly,
M-Genesis sees a strong case for concordance between scripture and science.
This statement alone should ring Church bells for some, and sirens for
others. J
Although M-Genesis is not a scientific theory, it does make scientific
predictions:
1) Some accretion disks will appear watery blue.
2) Enshrouded stars may burst forth light (though God's intervention
may make for sense instead based on the statement that the Spirit moved over
the face of the waters just prior to the event of light coming forth.)
3) Protoplanets may appear to form in void-like areas within the
protoplanetary disks (proplyds).
[These predictions came prior to the last year's astronomical discoveries,
btw.]
Big Bang Theory, since it's been mentioned, is not a requirement to
M-Genesis, but it supports what we see in the first phase of Biblical
creation: proplyds with protoplanetary void regions.
"Coope"
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [ <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>
mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of PvM
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 9:44 PM
To: Alexanian, Moorad
Cc: Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] M-Genesis
A few problems with the logic here. First of all evolution does not
depend on the validity of the Big Bang, although there is significant
supporting evidence for this concept. I am not sure what alternatives
there exist to 'science' in between. And finally, evolution... Well,
it seems straightforward from the vast amounts of evidences that
evolution did happen. It's all about the evidence really.
On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu>
wrote:
> If one supposes the Big Bang, the fact that we are now discussing issues,
and nothing but "science" happened in-between, then "evolution" did happen.
Of course, these are big ifs. However, if all the terms used are properly
defined, then the real discussion is all about these supposed ifs.
>
>
>
> Moorad
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Dehler, Bernie
> Sent: Sun 8/10/2008 1:29 AM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] M-Genesis
>
>
>
> Gregory Arago said:
> "Now, even if a small minority of voices would claim that 'God creates
using evolution' or 'evolution is God's method,' doesn't do (hasn't seemed
to do) anything much to change the perception INSIDE the field of biology
that there is no plan, no guidance, no teleology, and no purpose in
biological change-over-time."
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [ <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>
mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Gregory Arago
> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 9:54 PM
> To: asa@calvin.edu ; George Cooper
> Subject: Re: [asa] M-Genesis
>
>
>
> Howdy George,
>
> Are you a cosmologist? I haven't met many actual (practising)
cosmologists, but many people who are interested in cosmology, mostly as
amateurs. Actually, I read somewhere recently that cosmology is all but lost
in today's Academy, that most people are taught little about it. A bit sad
if it would be true.
>
> Just to clarify once again my position, I am against biology-centrism and
elevating the meaning of biology too high for society's own good. Hopefully
you can understand the reason for feeling this way, which are easier to
understand if you've followed the story of socio-biology and now
evolutionary psychology as 'academic' disciplines. The term 'mutations,'
though you freely apply it to cosmology ('supernova blasts'), I should
express to you great hesitation in using it about human beings and changes
in things not part of 'natural sciences.'
>
> A couple of questions: By 'advance' or 'advanced' do you imply 'better'?
You use the words 'for the good,' without mentioning how this value-term may
be defined. For me, each star being "different than another" is hardly
evidence for 'the good.' Are you using 'advanced change' in cosmology to
mean that 'the universe' is somehow 'getting better'? You didn't use the
words 'simple' or 'complex' or 'heterogeneous' and 'homogeneous' (the latter
representing Spencerian evolution, rather than Darwinian), but perhaps that
is behind your cosmological evaluation of 'the good'?
>
> We quite probably see the subjective/objective dichotomy differently.
Bringing Rene Descartes into play seems worthwhile in a discourse commonly
dominated by reference to Sir Charles Darwin. Do you view natural philosophy
as relevant to this conversation, given that what is today called 'science'
was once considered as 'natural philosophy'? Some people consider Aristotle
an 'evolutionist,' yet there are many features of Aristotelian thought that
are inconsistent with 'evolutionism.' Philosophy is lively important here as
a bridge-crossing activity.
>
> You write: "I am using evolution as a general term for advanced change,
and not restricting it to biology. I am suggesting it is a wonderful and
natural process that was planned from the beginning."
>
> On what basis do you justify stretching the meaning of 'evolution' in this
way? Why do you 'transfer' the concept 'evolution' outside of biology? Why
not restrict 'evolution' to biology or to 'natural' things only? This would
perhaps help to protect from the penetration of ideology into your
'science.' Again, just as it was with Iain Strachan, I don't mean this to
accuse you of 'ideological science' simply because you accept certain
aspects of evolutionary theories. It is a simple thing to do to distance
oneself from ideology, by openly rejecting those aspects of Darwin's theory
or of any other type of evolutionary theory that are not scientific, not
theological, but rather ideological. I wonder why theistic evolutionists and
evolutionary creationists seem hesitant to do so - but since I live outside
of the American milieu, perhaps it is because people don't want to be
misquoted or called a 'creationist' just by rejecting anything
'evolutionary,' even the quite obvious 'evo
l!
>
> utionary ideology.'
>
> Perhaps you have seen arguments that 'evolution' is not synonymous with
'change'. For most biologists, as far as my understanding of the community
of scientists who are called (who call themselves) 'biologists,' there
simply isn't any change 'planned from the beginning.' This is simply a fact
of the field's held views. Yet you say 'Yes, there is a plan' as if it could
have some authority.
>
> Now, even if a small minority of voices would claim that 'God creates
using evolution' or 'evolution is God's method,' doesn't do (hasn't seemed
to do) anything much to change the perception INSIDE the field of biology
that there is no plan, no guidance, no teleology, and no purpose in
biological change-over-time. The effort to influence the grammar of
biologists to include such concepts may be commendable, yet little fruit
seems to have come of it. I'd be glad to hear some counter-evidence to this
claim if you can provide it.
>
> And it may turn out that our cosmologies are more similar to each other's
than the contrasting ways we view change, development, variation,
differentiation, flux, adaptation and other such concepts that are not
exclusive to being perceived ONLY within an evolutionary paradigm. Evolution
is simply not a King or Queen theory in my books.
>
> Regards,
>
> G. Arago
>
>
>
> btw, M-Genesis, do you have a good paper or on-line link about this?
>
> --- On Fri, 8/8/08, George Cooper <georgecooper@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> From: George Cooper <georgecooper@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: [asa] M-Genesis
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Received: Friday, August 8, 2008, 6:12 PM
>
> Howdy Greg,
>
> There is an evolutionary process found in cosmology. For instance,
the
> nebulae "species" will evolve into the stellar "species"
> given the
> occurrence of adequate "mutations" (eg supernova blasts). Each
star,
> using
> this example, will be different than another. Also, these
differences play
> an important roll in subsequent events. Originally, there were no
metals
> (elements > helium) to speak of that are necessary for any bio
evolution.
> This analogy to biology is limited, but the point is how things do
change
> and, more importantly, they change for "the good". The paramaters
of
> the
> universe must be just right to allow these changes to bring about
more
> advance things. If you want sentient beings to emerge through
natural
> processes, be sure to design your universe like this one. :)
>
> This view includes a Designer. The fine tuning aspects of the
universe
> infers a Designer, but it doesn't demand one. The objective
arguments only
> allow a subjective claim for a Creator. Thus, it isn't science
since it is
> not testable nor observeable. [Multiverse ideas offer one
alternative,
> especially for those who would object to such an inference as God
the
> Creator. Indeed, it is why I think some are quick to call them
theories
> when they are not. The more legitimate they look, the more God
appears
> removed from the event. ]
>
> Greg wrote: Above you wrote methodology, now you write method. Most
people
> speak of evolutionary 'theory' or of evolution as a 'fact of
> natural
> history.' Yet you seem to be elevating it into something more
significant,
> into a method(ology). Is this your intention?
>
> [BTW, I am now using Outlook, but when I do a reply I am not
allowed any
> font control. Any ideas?]
>
> Yes, I am using evolution as a general term for advanced change,
and not
> restricting it to biology. I am suggesting it is a wonderful and
natural
> process that was planned from the beginning. These processes are
integral,
> to some extent, to other processes. For instance, aren't gamma
rays (or
> their atmospheric products) one contributor to mutations? Black
holes,
> supernova, hypernova, GRB's, etc. may be important to such
biological
> events
> and the processes that form these are integral, along with other
physical
> parameters, to biological evolution.
>
> M-Genesis does not address such ideas in any detail, but only
considers what
> a human observer might have seen and recorded. Evolution gives us
an
> explanation of the natural processes that took place that
eventually led to
> the observations that were seen and recorded on the day of each
observing
> event, though millions or billions of years would have transpired.
[Again,
> the six days are only six days taken from the days of Moses.]
>
> Coope
>
>
>
>
>
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