Re: [asa] The Doors of the Sea

I don't want to put too many words in Hart's mouth. He simply mentioned to
me that his view is Origenist. I researched Origen's views a bit on my
own. Hart is Eastern Orthodox, so I'm not sure the condemnation of Origen's
views by the Roman church would matter. And I don't know how the Eastern
church thinks of the preexistence of souls -- anyone know?

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 9:34 PM, <philtill@aol.com> wrote:

> David,
>
> is Hart knowingly taking a position that has been condemned as heretical
> by the Western church? Has he interacted with that declaration of heresy?
>
> I'm not familiar with Origin or much theology, so I hadn't heard of this
> Originist view till I read your post, below. It strikes me as related to
> C.S.Lewis's ideas found in _The Great Divorce_ where Lewis imagines human
> spirits existing outside time and projecting their wills into actions inside
> time. It sounds like Lewis' view is an improved version of Origin's, taking
> a more modern view of Time so that souls aren't crudely "pre" existing. I
> wonder if Lewis' improved version would have been condemned. Did Hart
> mention Lewis' view either in his book or when you corresponded with him?
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com>
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Sent: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 9:06 pm
> Subject: Re: [asa] The Doors of the Sea
>
> Hi David,
>
> I'm not saying he is making a TE argument, but I do sense a substantial
> similarity. For example, Hart would argue that God is not directing each
> and every circumstance that humans encounter (whether natural or personal),
> just as TEs do not see God directing every mutation and speciation event.
>
> -Mike
>
>
>
> I read Hart's book and corresponded with him a bit about it. In the
> passage you quote, Mike, Hart is responding to the classical argument that
> some evil might be necessary to achieve the greatest good -- that* this *universe,
> with its evil, it known to God as the best of all possible worlds from the
> perspective of eternity. Rather, Hart argues, the universe was originally
> created *good*, and evil, including "natural evil," is a foreign invader
> into that goodness. In this, Hart is definitely not taking a line typically
> taken by TE's.
>
> I corresponded with Hart a bit about this, and he said he acknowledges that
> there was natural evil in the world long before human sin, but that his view
> of the fall is "Origenist." This I take to refer to Origen's notion of
> pre-existing souls that fell before the physical world was created. In this
> view, evil was introduced into the creation in a spiritual realm of souls;
> natural evil is in some sense a result of this spiritual rebellion. I don't
> know the extent to which Hart literally follows Origen here, but in essence,
> the universe is a duality in which "prior" events in the spiritual realm
> impact the physical.
>
> While this would solve the temporal problem of natural evil preceding the
> fall, I'm not sure many of us would be willing to commit to it --
> particularly as many TE's seem to reject ontological dualism altogether.
> Origen's views on the preexistence of souls were eventually condemned as
> heretical by the Western church. I'm not sure of their status in the
> Eastern church.
>
> In any event, Hart is a beautiful writer, and I'd recommend The Doors of
> the Sea to anyone thinking through theodicy.
>
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-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
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