I believe the nature of man IS the nature of man. Had you been living
in China, or Africa, or in the Americas at the time Adam "fell" you
would have noticed nothing nor would anything perceptible have happened
at all. God's plan for redemption for mankind just shifted from being
based upon man's ability to live a righteous, obedient life in the
company of the Creator to being based upon the vicarious atonement of
God 5,000 years later in the person of Christ.
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Alexanian, Moorad
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 5:38 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie; ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for
Gregory)
It seems to me that the "fall" must mark the transition of some sort of
a before & after of the nature of man. We may suppose that man after the
"fall" is the present man; however, we do not have much info about man
before the "fall." It may be that the transition is based on man having
known God yet breaking His laws; this is the meaning of sin. I do not
understand how evolution would have brought man or pre-man to a
knowledge of God. If God told man of His laws at an appropriate time,
then is that where the story of Genesis takes over. Surely, God has had
a strong involvement to bring man, via evolution, to the right place in
Eden and the 'fall' must have truly changed the nature of man.
Moorad
________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Sat 8/9/2008 3:33 PM
To: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for
Gregory)
I didn't see a clear answer to the question, Dick.
What does "fall of Adam" mean to you? And if there was a "fall" from a
literal man named Adam, how did that get transmitted to other peoples
isolated from Adam in both time and space?
Another short answer would be appreciated.
,,,Bernie
________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 7:27 AM
To: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for
Gregory)
I can't reconcile what likely happened with what we would like to have
happened had we been in charge. Theology has to work its way around the
facts of Bible, science and history, we don't rearrange science and
history to fit our own particular theology based upon how we interpret
or misinterpret Scripture. That said, I can only guess how God
established his plan of salvation and what changed because Adam made a
bad choice. I can see little difference in the consequences for
geographically removed populations living at the time of Adam and those
living at the time of Christ, or even those living today. Whatever
arrangements applied to uninformed cultures living 2,000 years ago could
have applied 7,000 years ago.
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org <http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/>
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of D. F. Siemens, Jr.
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 6:27 PM
To: bernie.dehler@intel.com
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for
Gregory)
There is an aspect of Dick's thought that creates a graver problem. I
can understand that the people who contacted Adam (his view) directly or
indirectly, could learn to have a conscience or whatever it takes to be
responsible before God. However, there were many tribes who were totally
isolated from such contact on the Americas, Australia, the Pacific
islands. Other tribes, such as those in the more distant areas of
Africa, for example, would be unlikely to have the message relayed to
them. The only way I can think of for these groups to have a conscience
is for it to be "transmitted" to them merely through the fact that Adam
existed. If this is the way that responsibility became part of every
human being now alive, then the redemption in Christ should be
transmitted similarly, so that all are now redeemed necessarily. If Dick
can explain how anyone is unredeemed under his scenario, I'd like to
hear it.
Dave (ASA)
On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:06:17 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
<bernie.dehler@intel.com> writes:
Dick and I both agree that man evolved from an ape-like
creature. The reason why is because of the overwhelming DNA evidence
(pseudogenes and fused chromosome). However, Dick thinks there was a
real historical Adam person and I don't. I just want to clarify that.
Dick, to be consistent, if you think Adam was a real person,
then I think you should also believe that there really was a talking
serpent and literal tree of life in a literal garden and that Eve was
made literally from Adam's rib (Gen. 2), but I don't think you go that
far, correct? A short response would be appreciated.
Gordon, yes I blur the distinction between human and non-human,
as that is what evolution is- a blur. Supposedly something like 95%
(99%?) of all animals (species) that ever lived are now extinct. Wacky
critters (like the platypus), thanks to evolution. If man arose from
ape-like creatures, it was very gradual. An ape didn't just give birth
to a man, as YEC's seem to think evolution teaches. At the present
moment- yes, big diff between animals and man, with (many) intermediates
missing.
Gordon said: "This is just one area in Christian doctrine where
in order to apply it it is necessary to know whether a creature is or is
not human."
Today- we know we are human, made in the image of God, and
sinners who need a savior. The details all vary according to your
denomination or personal theology, and aren't necessary, I think.
..Bernie
________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 7:53 AM
To: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society,
for Gregory)
Hi Gordon,
It seems pretty straight forward to me. Man splits off from
apes in the neighborhood of 6 million years ago becoming ape-man and
then man-ape until Homo erectus emerges. Much later, Homo sapiens
develop in Africa and spread out over the globe. The great races
develop. Southern Mesopotamia, the land of the Tigris and Euphrates,
remains unsettled until the advent of irrigation techniques. Up until
roughly 7,000 years ago there is no accountability among any of the
animal species including humans. Sin against God isn't possible by any
living creature until God establishes his covenant with Adam in the
Garden. This ushers in the era of accountability among humans with Adam
being the first accountable human being. So salvation begins with Adam
and sin begins with Adam. What's the problem?
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org <http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/>
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of gordon brown
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 5:26 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society,
for Gregory)
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> I think with evolution there is no such thing as a "first
man" since all species blur in the grey zone. There is no such thing as
a line between human and non-human... it happened very gradually.
Nevertheless, here we find ourselves as sinful humans made in the image
of God. Animals don't sin (even if bears and tigers do kill each other
simply for territory, rape, etc.).
>
Bernie,
I don't think you are being consistent here. First you blur the
distinction between human and nonhuman. Then you turn around and
say that
humans sin but animals don't. This is just one area in Christian
doctrine
where in order to apply it it is necessary to know whether a
creature is
or is not human. The answer should not have to depend on a
physical basis
for making the distinction.
Gordon Brown (ASA member)
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