RE: [asa] The Fall of man (Adamites- the local/global flood question)

Hi Bernie,

See my replies/questions interspersed below...

--- "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:

> John Walley said:
> "I can't help to be intrigued by how, other than the
> location and
> possibly the date, the Black Sea flood otherwise
> fits Noah's flood as
> being local, sudden and catastrophic."
>
>
>
> I don't think the flood was very "sudden." Raining
> for 40 days is
> "sudden" compared to a year, but it is not "sudden"
> as if being a quick
> surprise.
>
>
>
> For example, if a Doctor told you that you had 40
> days to live because
> of cancer, people could refer to your "sudden"
> death- but it wouldn't be
> a "sudden" death like being struck and killed by a
> car, or being shot
> and killed by a mugger.
>
>
Agreed--did a quick reread of the Genesis passages on
blueletterbible, and "sudden" was not the sense I got
from it.
 
>
> I don't see any need for an ark and filling it with
> animals for a local
> flood-seems going "overboard" to me.
>
>
>
> Dick said in another email:
>
> "The length of time is as problematical for a local
> flood as it is for a
> worldwide flood. What color do you think the olive
> leaf was that the
> dove plucked off the branch of the olive tree, green
> or brown?"
>
>
>
> I don't think either a local or global flood makes
> sense- as well as the
> leaf. If a local flood, I think Noah could have
> seen land... if a
> global flood, all vegetation would have been wiped
> out (the Bible says
> the global flood lasted a year).
>
>
Others may correct me if I'm wrong, but whenever we
refer to a "local" flood, I think the general view is
that it was *regional* in scale, such that no nearby
land (i.e. land that might have been easily reached
while lugging your entire family and livelihood and
two of each of the local creatures along with you)
would be available...say for example, flooding on the
(geographic) scale of what's going on in the midwest
right now, where several hundred (thousand?) square
miles are inundated. That kind of flooding didn't
happen overnight, but its widespread and severe enough
that I'm sure a lot of people there would appreciate
(and need) an ark of some sort right now.

>
> If there's any solution at all to Noah and the ark,
> it must be a myth to
> teach spiritual things. In real life, the flood
> story doesn't add-up
> (as a real local or global flood).
>
My tendancy is to (mostly) agree with you--I think the
story is likely rooted in a very real, very
catastrophic event (again, something on the scale of
Katrina, or the current midwest floods, etc), but that
it was dressed up in mythologic-style to serve
theological purposes.

As an aside, I not long ago read of a scientist who
claimed to have evidence of a large scale meteorite
impact (in the Indian Ocean I believe) from the Noah's
ark time frame, which he said generated catastrophic
tsunamis all over the world...he was theorizing that
such a tsunami could have been the source for the
Biblical flood story as well as many of the other
flood stories found in other cultures. I'm somewhat
skeptical of the idea that the configuration of the
seas and land in Mesopotamia could have lead to such a
phenomenon though? Anyway, I unfortunately don't
remember the source for the idea now...anybody heard
of the hypothesis and whether or not it got anywhere?

In Christ,
Christine (ASA member)

>

>
> Just my thoughts.
>
>
>
> ,,,Bernie
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: John Walley [mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 6:08 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie; 'ASA'
> Subject: RE: [asa] The Fall of man (Adamites- the
> local/global flood
> question)
>
>
>
> Bernie,
>
>
>
> An interesting attempt at a solution to this thorny
> problem is a recent
> book called "Before the Flood" by Ian Wilson (not to
> be confused with
> the 1974 Bob Dylan album by the same name) that
> labels the Black Sea
> flood of ~5500 BC as that of Noah's flood.
>
>
>
> It is obviously not in the region typically
> associated with the flood
> but it does have the characteristics of being sudden
> and catastrophic (a
> breeching of a natural earthen dam at the Bosporus)
> which could possibly
> explain how a local flood could be universal in
> scope.
>
>
>
> It would be really interesting if we observed some
> similar type
> explanation of a sudden and catastrophic flood in
> Mesopotamia, but we
> don't to my knowledge. I can't help to be intrigued
> by how, other than
> the location and possibly the date, the Black Sea
> flood otherwise fits
> Noah's flood as being local, sudden and
> catastrophic.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2000/12/122800blacksea.html
>
>
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/Before-Flood-Biblical-Changed-Civilization/dp/0312
>
319711/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214009379&sr=8-11
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of
> Dehler, Bernie
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 8:43 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: RE: [asa] The Fall of man (Adamites- the
> local/global
> flood question)
>
> I don't think a local flood would have accomplished
> much,
> because most people would be able to get to higher
> ground. The rains
> came down for a long time- giving plenty of time to
> escape. Only a
> global flood could kill everyone outside the ark,
> and that flood would
> have to be higher than the mountains, as even the
> Bible mentions (or
> else people could climb mountains to survive). A
> global flood wouldn't
> destroy much, and a global flood didn't happen, as
> we know from science.
> Do you think a slow local flood could accomplish
> much by way of killing
> people... seems to me they would "see it coming" and
> have time to get
> out-most people, anyway. According to the Bible-
> the flood lasted for a
> year, too. That's a very long time for a local
> flood.
>
>
>
> ...Bernie
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of
> Dick Fischer
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 5:32 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: RE: [asa] The Fall of man (Adamites- the
> local/global
> flood question)
>
>
>
> Hi Bernie:
>
>
>
> Good question! I can only guess at God's
> motivations for doing
> it the way He did, and Genesis is extremely sparse
> with details.
> Considering the flood was meant to terminate a
> certain group of
> individuals it would have been important for them to
> remain where they
> were. Ziusudra (Noah) according to the Sumerian
> king
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Received on Mon Jun 23 13:31:01 2008