Re: [asa] Creationism Conference

Since my "attitude" is apparently in question, let me be very about it clear. That attitude in this matter has to do with ideas, not people - attribute that to my being a reine Lehre Lutheran if you wish. If a prominent YEC cadre were in need of food or shelter I would be happy to help. If he came to church when I was presiding at Communion I would give him the sacrament. But if that same person asked me to contribute to a fund for the publication of a book "refuting" evolution, I wouldn't give a cent.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack" <drsyme@cablespeed.com>
To: "Stephen Matheson" <smatheso@calvin.edu>; "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>; "George Murphy" <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>; "Dick Fischer" <dickfischer@verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Creationism Conference

> Steve, in the interest of full transparency, I think it is important that
> the list know your own words in describing Hugh Ross:
>
> "Now let me be clear: I will continue to refer to certain examples of RTB's
> behavior as misconduct, and I will not hesitate to identify the promulgation
> of falsehood by Ross and Rana as irresponsible, indefensible, and even
> dishonest. I will not hesitate to question Hugh Ross' intellectual
> integrity, and I think he should not be considered trustworthy as long as he
> persists in the reckless dissemination of fabricated nonsense that serves
> only to direct Christians away from basic facts of biology. The fabricated
> fable about the "team of physicists" is deeply troubling to me, and it
> should be troubling to anyone who claims the name of Christ. If I knew Hugh
> Ross, I would urge him to do whatever is necessary to change course, and I
> would encourage RTB to invest in mechanisms designed to establish and
> maintain basic integrity. But I won't call him a liar, or refer to his
> falsehoods as lies, and I won't assume that he seeks only to mislead or
> misinform Christians."
>
> I realize that you were trying to make a distinction between calling him a
> liar, and something else. But you say he is "irresponsible, indefensible,
> and dishonest." I understand that Dick's comments were inappropriate and
> crass, but is what he said really that different than what you have said
> here in your own blog? I am not trying to argue that Dick's attitude, or
> George's is appropriate. I have complained on this list before that I think
> that some here forget who the enemy is. Similarly, I also took umbrage at
> your comments about Ross on Kevin's blog which led to a discussion
> https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=1054707203818412735&postID=2929171422971695514&pli=1
> that led to something of a retraction, which is where the above comments
> come from.
> http://sfmatheson.blogspot.com/search/label/Creationism
>
> I am still willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this believe it
> or not. As I recall we were going to have a beer over it. Kevin is coming
> to town next weekend I think, we will drink one to you at The Brewer's Art.
> Of course you are welcome if you can make it to Baltimore. Personally, I
> was willing to let Dick's comment go and not take it too seriously.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Matheson" <smatheso@calvin.edu>
> To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>; "George Murphy" <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>; "Dick
> Fischer" <dickfischer@verizon.net>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Creationism Conference
>
>
>> George, I appreciate and applaud your Christ-centered work here on this
>> listserv. I don't think I can overstate the importance I place on your
>> approach and on your faithful re-direction of our attention to Jesus and
>> to the cross.
>>
>> But I can't go with you here. "Personalities" were not the focus of my
>> comments. PEOPLE were. I know some of the people at the ICC. Some of
>> these folks are serious thinkers, who are fully aware of the strength of
>> evolutionary theory and of the nature of the evidence they need to
>> explain. They deserve respect, because they are faithful and honest. Are
>> they wrong about the age of the earth and the meaning of Genesis? Of
>> course they are. Can they affirm the ASA Statement of Faith, without
>> hesitation, and heartily endorse the "General Statement on Creation" in
>> the ASA's Commission on Creation report? Of course they can. Does that
>> mean they should be welcome at the ASA table, welcome to discuss and
>> disagree without being treated like crap? Of course it does.
>>
>> If we're going to denounce the destructive consequences of YEC biblical
>> interpretation, we need to do it in such a way as to acknowledge that one
>> need not be stupid or evil to make the YEC mistake. This is precisely the
>> criterion of decency that Bill Dembski just cannot comprehend, and his
>> sickening recent outburst on his blog was an amazing example of the
>> projection of this pathology onto others. For examples, we can look at
>> our own listserv. The ID movement is a profound mistake in my judgment,
>> but Mike Gene is a smart and decent thinker who is honestly grappling with
>> some interesting questions. Blanket denunciations of ID theorists,
>> peppered with gratuitous insults, would hit good people like Mike. If
>> only for his sake, and for Todd Wood's, and even for mine and yours, let's
>> not engage in these tactics. I'm working on this myself; I'm not
>> pretending that it's easy.
>>
>> I'm happy to give "aid and comfort" to those who are honestly mistaken,
>> who acknowledge the strength of others' arguments while they pursue their
>> own ideas and convictions. If Phil Johnson and Ken Ham had that kind of
>> respect for fellow Christians, this world would surely be a different
>> place.
>>
>> Steve Matheson
>>
>>>>> "George Murphy" <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com> 06/21/08 8:13 PM >>>
>> The issue is not - or should not be - personalities. YEC teachings are
>> poisoning the church in the United States and for that matter the broader
>> society.. Anything that gives those who promulgate them aid and comfort
>> is
>> a mistake.
>>
>> Shalom
>> George
>> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Stephen Matheson" <smatheso@calvin.edu>
>> To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>; "Dick Fischer" <dickfischer@verizon.net>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Creationism Conference
>>
>>
>>>I know some of the people who will be there, and know them to be
>>>intelligent and decent persons of high integrity. So I'm not excited
>>>about
>>>this crass mockery, and I'm especially uncomfortable with the mention of
>>>"lying." I'm certain that the conference will include crankery and
>>>ignorance and maybe even some forms of dishonesty, but I'm also quite sure
>>>that it will be attended by some scientists with expertise and integrity.
>>>In the ASA that I would like to belong to (if it exists), young-earth
>>>creationists of competence and integrity would be fully welcome and would
>>>feel as comfortable as an evolutionary creationist or design proponent
>>>would. I doubt that comments like Dick's give that impression.
>>>
>>> I think I understand Dick's response, and I don't want to make it sound
>>> like I don't also feel immense frustration and anger when considering the
>>> actions of fellow Christians who claim to reject common descent or the
>>> ancient earth. But we really don't want to suggest that Mike Gene is the
>>> same kind of person that Bill Dembski seems to be, any more than we want
>>> to suggest that I am the same kind of person that Richard Dawkins seems
>>> to
>>> be, or that Andrew Snelling is the same kind of person that Jonathan
>>> Sarfati seems to be. Dick's comments would seem to suggest that one
>>> cannot expect to find YECs with professional (or personal) integrity. I
>>> know this to be untrue.
>>>
>>> Oh, and one of these years (next year I hope) I intend to attend an ICC,
>>> and I would expect to be treated with respect and decency, maybe even
>>> with
>>> warm hospitality. Wouldn't it be great if our listserv and/or our
>>> meetings could be characterized like that?
>>>
>>> Steve Matheson, who isn't for a moment suggesting that we oughtn't be
>>> strongly critical of bad ideas
>>>
>>>>>> "Dick Fischer" <dickfischer@verizon.net> 06/21/08 9:19 AM >>>
>>> Looks like a real gathering of eagles. I wonder if "Lying with a
>>> Straight Face" is a title of any of the conference papers?
>>>
>>> Dick Fischer, author, lecturer
>>> Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham
>>> <http://www.historicalgenesis.com> www.historicalgenesis.com
>>>
>>> 2008 International Conference on Creationism
>>>
>>>
>>> This summer, the International Conference on <http://www.icc08.org/>
>>> Creationism (ICC) will be held in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania from August
>>> 3-7 at the Radisson Hotel
>>> <http://www.icc08.org/ICCmaptoRadissonHotel10.pdf> Conference Center.
>>> Creation <http://www.csfpittsburgh.org/> Science Fellowship (CSF)
>>> working together with The Institute for Creation Research
>>> <http://www.icr.org/> (ICR) will host this scientific conference
>>> featuring about forty peer-reviewed research papers dealing with the
>>> topic of origins.
>>> The ICC is the world's leading scientific conference for developing the
>>> creation model and will feature about forty
>>> <http://www.icc08.org/schedule.htm> original papers and special evening
>>> presentations by the world's leading creation researchers and speakers
>>> including Andrew Snelling, Russ Humphreys, John Baumgardner, Steve
>>> Austin, John Sanford, John Whitmore, John Hartnett and many more. These
>>> papers, as well as the evening presentations are described on the
>>> conference web site which is www.icc08.org <http://www.icc08.org/> .
>>> This conference will be of special interest to Christian high school and
>>> college science teachers. The papers cover a wide variety of topics
>>> falling into any one of the following categories: Foundations of
>>> Science, Life Sciences, Stellar and Planetary Sciences, Earth Sciences,
>>> Social Sciences and the Humanities. These sessions require
>>> registration.
>>> You have three options for conference registration:
>>> 1. Register online at www.icc08.org
>>> 2. Use the form on our ICC brochure
>>> <http://www.icc08.org/ICC2008_Brochure.pdf> .
>>> 3. Use the special Registration PDF Form
>>> <http://www.icc08.org/reg_form.pdf> available on our web site. It has
>>> form fields so you can type your information and then print it.
>>> The cost is explained in detail with any of the above three resources.
>>> Though the daytime session are technical and require registration, the
>>> evening presentations are free and open to the public. The technical
>>> level of the evening presentations will be appropriate for the average
>>> adult audience. Teenagers, parents, pastors, and anyone interested in
>>> the topic of origins will all find these evening sessions beneficial.
>>> * Sunday, August 3 - Speaker: Dr. Russ Humphreys, PhD
>>> Topic: Why is the "Age-Issue" important to the Origins Debate and in
>>> particular to the Creation Model of Origins?
>>> * Monday, August 4 - Speaker: Steve Austin, PhD
>>> Topic: Understanding the Mud Flow Revolution
>>> * Tuesday, August 5 - Speaker: John Baumgardner, PhD
>>> Topic: Catastrophic Plate Tectonics: A Mechanism for the Flood.
>>> * Wednesday, Aug. 6 - Speaker: Andrew Snelling, PhD
>>> Topic: The Creation Model: Its Past, Its Present and Its Necessary
>>> Future
>>> My responsibility is to coordinate publicity for the ICC conference.
>>> You can help by copying the text of this article to the clipboard and
>>> pasting it into the body of an email. Send the email to friends of
>>> yours whom you think would have an interest in this conference. Feel
>>> free to contact me directly with questions. My email address is
>>> stevesobek@comcast.net
>>> Steve Sobek
>>> ICC Publicity Coordinator
>>> and CEAI Member
>>> www.icc08.org <http://www.icc08.org/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Sat Jun 21 22:11:51 2008