Re: [asa] Saving Darwin: What theological changes are required?

"Must accept" and "must have a dialogue" are very different -- so if you're
central proposal is that we, Christians and particularly evangelicals, must
have a serious dialogue about how we understand Adam, the fall, the imago
dei, etc. in light of current evolutionary science, in that I concur 110%.

Karl, I know you're involved at Gordon College, my alma mater (many, many
years ago) an an institution I value highly and with which I'm
still involved in a couple of areas. And of course Gordon College is just
down the road from Gordon Conwell, a leading conservative evangelical
seminary. (I won't mention Eastern Nazarene College because they were our
big sports rivals -- I played baseball (badly)).

What sorts of discussions have you been able to engage in with the theology
/ Biblical studies folks at any of these institutions? My interactions with
the natural sciences faculty at Gordon suggest great opennes for
this dialogue; my very limited interactions with the theology faculty
suggest otherwise, somewhat to my surprise.

In my personal experience, published work by respected conservative Biblical
scholars and theologians rejecting the strict YEC view about "death before
the fall" enabled me to move out of YECism with minimal distress (though I
wasn't ever a major YEC advocate anyway). In contrast, any closing of the
liminal space between OECism and some version of TE / EC has been massively
distressing because the theological support from "my" community is absent.
I've read an benefitted from work by folks like George Murphy, Ted Peters,
Nancey Murphy, etc. -- but for someone like me, a life-long, third
generation evangelical, there's something more tangible about support from
someone with the in-community stature of a Gordon-Conwell, Wheaton, Gordon
College, TEDs, etc. theologian.

We have now a "progressive evangelical" movement which can be helpful --
Pete Enns, Telford Work, Kent Sparks, Scot McKnight, etc. -- but even here
there are electric wires that aren't directly touched and that seem to
divide the community.
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:58 AM, karl.w.giberson@enc.edu <
gibersok@gmail.com> wrote:

> I see the value as creating a greater coherence to our understanding
> of creation. I think it also raises valuable questions about the
> treatment of animals. Not to resort to ad hominem comments, but it
> wasn't that long ago that Africans were considered to be less than
> fully human, and mistreated as a consequence.
>
> I am not saying we MUST do this. I am asking that the dialog be
> opened and that we challenge the assumption of yesteryear that we were
> not to be understood as animals.
>
> On a related note, I think there are many cases where the biblical
> writers, reflecting current views, made incorrect statements about the
> natural world. The shape and motion of the earth, inheritance of
> characteristics, the renewal of the eagle's youth, etc are all
> examples. It doesn't bother me at all that Paul would have thought
> Adam was a real person and incorporated that misunderstanding into his
> Christology.
>
> Evangelicals are only selectively inerrantist, in my opinion. When
> the case becomes strong enough they can always "re-interpret", as they
> did long after Galileo.
>
>
> 2008/6/10 Bill Hamilton <williamehamiltonjr@yahoo.com>:
> > Honestly, I don't see what extending the image of God to other species
> accomplishes, except alienating orthodox Christians. What positive result
> could come from it, Karl?
> >
> >
> > William E. (Bill) Hamilton, Ph.D. Member ASA
> > 248.821.8156 (mobile)
> > "...If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom 8:31
> > http://www.bricolagia.blogspot.com/
> > Want to help a child?:
> http://www.compassion.com/sponsor/index.asp?referer=85198
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com>
> >> To: ASA list <asa@calvin.edu>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:16:00 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [asa] Saving Darwin: What theological changes are required?
> >>
> >> Hi karl,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "Let me comment about the imago dei. It seems to me that, until such
> >>
> >> time as we can all agree on exactly what the Imago dei refers to, we
> >>
> >> must refrain from saying that it is present only in the human species."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't agree that "we must" do this. The Imago dei is a theological
> >> concept derived only from the Bible and sets man apart from the rest of
> >> creation. I view it as the aspect of our essence that allows us to
> *relate*
> >> to God.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If you would like to extend this concept to other species, what you need
> to
> >> do is to a) define Imago dei and b) identify the other species that fall
> >> under the definition. Unless you can do this, I see no reason to extend
> it
> >> to other species.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It is one thing to envision ways by which to reconcile theology with the
> >> science du jour, but it's another thing to build a theology on science.
> Are
> >> we going to define Imago dei, a theological concept, in scientific,
> >> reductionist terms? How is this all that different from the atheist who
> >> derives philosophical naturalism from methodological naturalism?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "But we cannot be as glib as Christians of yesteryear in thinking that
> there
> >> is some simple
> >>
> >> distinction between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom. Fran De
> >> Waals recounts many provocative stories of primate behaviors that, were
> they
> >> performed by humans, would be considered exemplary of kindness and
> >> generosity."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> And on the other hand, you should tread very, very carefully as many
> today
> >> use these very arguments to justify a campaign of harassment and
> terrorism
> >> against scientists. The construction workers building a new animal
> research
> >> facility at Oxford University must hide their identities and be
> protected by
> >> the police.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -MikeGene
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "karl.w.giberson@enc.edu"
> >> To: "Ted Davis"
> >> Cc: "ASA list" ; "Stephen Matheson" ;
> >> "Steve Martin"
> >> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:22 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [asa] Saving Darwin: What theological changes are required?
> >>
> >>
> >> > Let me comment about the imago dei. It seems to me that, until such
> >> > time as we can all agree on exactly what the Imago dei refers to, we
> >> > must refrain from saying that it is present only in the human species.
> >> > If, for example, we think that empathy or altruism are a part of the
> >> > imago dei, then we must think about what this means for other species
> >> > that exhibit these traits. My comment, which was not verbally
> >> > inspired by God, was simply that we must consider this issue. Perhaps,
> >> > upon consideration, we will do nothing. But we cannot be as glib as
> >> > Christians of yesteryear in thinking that there is some simple
> >> > distinction between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom. Fran De
> >> > Waals recounts many provocative stories of primate behaviors that,
> >> > were they performed by humans, would be considered exemplary of
> >> > kindness and generosity.
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Karl Giberson, Ph.D,
> www.karlgiberson.com
> Professor of Physics, Eastern Nazarene College, Quincy, MA
> Director of the Forum on Faith & Science, Gordon College, Wenham, MA.
> Phone: 781-801-2189
> Fax: 617-847-5933
>
> "A person without a sense of humor is like a wagon without springs --
> jolted by every pebble in the road." Henry Ward Beecher
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.