Re: [asa] Who's to blame for the lost ones?

To David's excellent post I would add that Dick Fischer's view -- that Adam was not the first human, that he was created by God to tell other humans about God (Dick may want to correct my interpretation) has considerable appeal. This makes Adam the representative of humanity, not its literal progenitor. But it also puts Adam in a role somewhat like that of Christ, and indeed Scripture calls Adam a type of Christ. Adam's mission of course was unsuccessful. William E. (Bill) Hamilton, Ph.D. Member ASA 248.821.8156 (mobile) "...If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom 8:31 http://www.bricolagia.blogspot.com/ Want to help a child?: http://www.compassion.com/sponsor/index.asp?referer=85198 ----- Original Message ---- From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com> To: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com> Cc: asa@calvin.edu Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 2:47:28 PM Subject: Re: [asa] Who's to blame for the lost ones? Bernie, I understand all too well how you feel -- all too well, believe me. Let me offer a few thoughts that have been helping me; maybe they'll help you or maybe not. First -- I don't see that it's necessary to "drop a literal first human named Adam." What might be necessary is to allow more room for different possibilities concerning what it might have meant to be the "literal first human." Does "human" mean only biology? Second -- Christian faith springs from a personal relationship with the risen Christ, not from how we understand the literary genre of Biblical geneology. If the Biblical geneologies reference some mythic-heroic characters, does that mean Christ is not raised? Or if "first" in the genre of Biblical geneology doesn't mean the same thing as "first" in terms of genetics or some other scientific category, does that mean Christ is not raised? Third -- "I am determined to follow the truth wherever it leads." Yes, I understand that determination well. But what is the final arbiter of "truth?" What if the limitations we all face as finite, situated human beings mean that every human search for "truth" based only on human knowledge and reason ultimately must remain unresolved -- stuck in paradoxes; pitted with missing data; mired in hindsight bias, confirmation bias, and other cognitive limitations; and subject to the inevitable changes of intellectual history? Has any person in all of human history ever actually "followed the truth wherever it leads" and ended up with dispationate, comprehensive and accurate understanding of reality? Why should you expect to be the first? Or could your encounter with the risen Christ be a reference or lens through which you evaluate and ground truth claims? A few maybe helpful books that have helped me at times: Esther Meeks, "Longing to Know" (http://longingtoknow.com/); Roy Clouser, "Knowing with the Heart"; Michael Polanyi, "Personal Knowledge"; Leslie Newbiggin, "Proper Confidence"; Alister McGrath, "Doubting"; John Stackhouse, "Humble Apologetics". On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote: David said: "Did the person who found his YECism shattered and gave up on Christianity altogether really trust in and encounter the person of Christ? Or was his faith only in a set of propositions?" It is like my struggle. I know Christ as well as any born-again Christian. Yet, I also pretty much accepted that there was a first human named Adam. Since accepting evolution, I think it makes sense to drop a literal first human named Adam. The problem is, the Bible treats this Adam guy really seriously, even putting him into geneologies. I almost fell-away, but at times am still teetering on the edge. I'm still studying. I'm considering it may be impossible to reconcile evolution with Christianity, esp. after reading the latest ASA Perspectives article called "Optimistic Evolutionists: The Progressive Science and religion of Joseph LeConte, Henry Ward Beecher, and Lyman Abbott." It is like what I learned in my seminary class- Darwinism is a universal acid that eats away at everything (philosophical and theological)… If I fall away, it would be because Christianity, and the Bible, don't make sense in light of evolution. It sounds scary to say, but I am determined to follow the truth wherever it leads. I have faith in Christ, but my theology is very liquid at this point. …Bernie ________________________________ From:David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:41 AM To: Bill Hamilton Cc: j burg; Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu Subject: Re: [asa] Who's to blame for the lost ones? Bill, you make what I think is a very helpful point here, one which many folks often make: our faith is centrally about Christ. I wonder if the "blame" isn't so much on any particular view of origins as it is on a highly rationalist version of the faith elevates certain propositions, including but not least about scripture, above the person of Christ. Did the person who found his YECism shattered and gave up on Christianity altogether really trust in and encounter the person of Christ? Or was his faith only in a set of propositions? On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Bill Hamilton <williamehamiltonjr@yahoo.com> wrote: Burgy wrote > Glenn Morton has made the claim many times that it is the YECs who are > to blame, along with those in the church who swallow their stuff. He > has at least strong anecdotal evidence to back his claim. I certainly agree with Glenn that YECism can be a factor in an individual departing from the faith. (As a former Arminian I cannot agree with the Calvinist accusation that Arminians believe one can _lose_ his faith. In the Wesleyan church I came to know the Lord in we believed that an individual could willfully depart from the faith. But _lose_ it? Never) But my own experience might serve as a counterexample. I encountered YECism shortly after I became a Christian. I decided to investigate it and believed it for a time. But I soon discovered a number of flaws in it. At that point I had to make a decision, and I decided that no matter what I believed about creationism, I believed in Jesus Christ, my savior. William E. (Bill) Hamilton, Ph.D. Member ASA 248.821.8156 (mobile) "...If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom 8:31 http://www.bricolagia.blogspot.com/ Want to help a child?: http://www.compassion.com/sponsor/index.asp?referer=85198 ----- Original Message ---- > From: j burg <hossradbourne@gmail.com> > To: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com> > Cc: asa@calvin.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:31:47 AM > Subject: Re: [asa] Who's to blame for the lost ones? > > On 6/4/08, Dehler, Bernie wrote: (in part) > > > Imagine this, you hear a report at church that 10 kids accepted Christ > > in the 3rd grade Sunday School. Everyone claps.> > > Fast forward 10 years, and you hear that the kid who entered college > > just left the faith because they now believe in evolution.> > > Who's to blame, the evolutionist who is teaching the lie of evolution, > > or the church who says that evolution is a lie? > >> > Glenn Morton has made the claim many times that it is the YECs who are > to blame, along with those in the church who swallow their stuff. He > has at least strong anecdotal evidence to back his claim. > > I have but one example -- a high school close friend who was a > witnessing Christian whem I was not -- who lost his faith in college > when he found out the YEC stuff he believed was wrong. Dick went on to > a career as an executive with Pitney Bowles (sp?) and is now retired, > living in Florida, a confirmed atheist. > > I think (and pray) for him on occasion. Sad. > > > I'm thinking more about this because I'm offering to teach a class at > > church, and am anticipating the push-back... I think there is a faction > > that wants to keep everyone in slumber. > > > I hope you are successful. I have taught such a class several times > (see my web site for material). On the last occasion the regular > teacher was (and probably is) a YEC. But she was willing to at least > give me equal time (three weeks). > > Burgy > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message. -- David W. Opderbeck Associate Professor of Law Seton Hall University Law School Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology -- David W. Opderbeck Associate Professor of Law Seton Hall University Law School Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Thu Jun 5 21:15:40 2008