RE: [asa] a theological exercise

God does not appear in the mathematical models we create to describe Nature. To the extent that evolutionary theory is a mathematical model, then God certainly does not appear in such a theory, which is created by the human mind. However, we, as free will agents, have the godly aspect of creators, which is an issue outside the physical aspect of Nature. Human diseases are a mixed bag. One is here dealing with living things, which are not purely physical, and so may not be amenable to mathematical descriptions. One must distinguish the real things from the mental constructs we set up to describe them.

The real things and all that there is, including us, are creatures and so God played a role in our existence. It is true that some of the regularity in Nature is part of the subject matter of science, which deals with the purely physical aspect of Nature. However, all entities with free will are outside that regularity of Nature and I am not sure how there can ever be a scientific description of them.

 
Moorad

________________________________

From: Stephen Matheson [mailto:smatheso@calvin.edu]
Sent: Wed 6/4/2008 11:40 AM
To: ASA list; George Murphy; Alexanian, Moorad
Subject: RE: [asa] a theological exercise

None of that is relevant to my point. You seem to believe that questions about God's interaction with "Nature" constitute a "dilemma" for "any Christian seriously interested in studying evolutionary theory." Differences between Newtonian models and evolutionary theory are immaterial to the subject at hand. (And you notably ignored human disease.)

For your claim to make sense, you must either A) acknowledge that all scientific theories -- indeed all of science itself -- face the same "dilemma", or you must B) explain how it is that evolutionary theory is unique in raising questions about God's interaction with creation.

A, of course, is correct, and your original assertion is seen to be misleading in that it suggests that evolutionary theory, as opposed to other areas of scientific inquiry or explanation, is distinctively naturalistic. This kind of error is, I'll grant, all too common, but it's the kind of error that is particularly discouraging when repeated on the ASA listserv, which is one corner of cyberspace where people ought to be expected to know better.

Steve Matheson

>>> "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu> 06/04/08 10:35 AM >>>
Newtonian theory is a mathematical model, sort of a mental toy. The surprising thing is that Newtonian model, which is not the real thing; it can make predictions about the real thing. Such is not the case with evolutionary theory, which is not a closed, specific model but has no bounds, and some consider it all encompassing.

Moorad

________________________________

From: Stephen Matheson [mailto:smatheso@calvin.edu]
Sent: Tue 6/3/2008 5:25 PM
To: ASA list; George Murphy; Alexanian, Moorad
Subject: RE: [asa] a theological exercise

That "dilemma" is universal to science. It is no more a "dilemma" for evolutionary theory than it is for Newtonian mechanics or for the study of human disease. To suggest otherwise is, in my view, completely incoherent.
Steve Matheson

>>> "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu> 06/03/08 2:34 PM >>>
First, do we know if God interacts with His creation? If God does interact with Nature, then how does He do it and can we scientifically detect such interactions. Here is the dilemma that any Christian seriously interested in studying evolutionary theory must eventually confront first.

Moorad

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From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of George Murphy
Sent: Tue 6/3/2008 2:07 PM
To: ASA list
Subject: [asa] a theological exercise

The first book we were assigned when I started seminary was a small volume by Helmut Thielicke, A Little Exercise for Young Theologians. I'd like to propose here what I think is an important little exercise for Christians, young & old, who want to engage in theology-science discussions, & especially those relating to evolution.

Let me begin with a scientific preliminary. One of the tasks of a scientist, & especially a theoreticians, is to try to see how well some new discovery fits in with what he/she has up until that point regarded as the best theory in the relevant field. E.g., are the data generated when a new particle accelerator comes on line consistent with current theories of high energy physics? If they are consistent without any tinkering with the theory then they can be regarded as predictions of noverl facts by that theory. Perhaps some relatively minor adjustments of secondary aspects of the theory are required. Or maybe there's just no natural way in which the new data can be understood within the theory's framework - in which case all but diehards will decide that a new theoretical framework is needed.

OK, assume now that somehow - & "how" is not something I want to debate now - it has been demonstrated scientifically, beyond any reasonable doubt, that present-day human beings have descended from pre-human ancestors without any unexplained gaps - physical or mental - in the process. (Some might claim that that's already been done but again that isn't the point now.) The exercise is to see how well this could fit in with your theology - with the way that you understand God, creation, sin, salvation and other aspects of the faith. Does the evolutionary reality flow naturally from your theology, does that theology require some modification in its secondary aspects, or is there just no way to make human evolution part of your theology without changing it (the theology) totally? A really serious effort should be made to accomplish the task in some detail. It need not produce a dissertation but has to be more elaborate than "Evolution is how God creates" or "The Bible rules!
  out evolution."

& now the point of the exercise. Only a Christian has honestly tried to do this - not necessarily succeeded but tried - has any business criticizing the views of Christians who do accept human evolution.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

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Received on Thu Jun 5 08:38:23 2008