Re: [asa] The Barr quote - observations on critical responses to Barr

Hi Murray -- good points -- I really wasn't trying to criticize Barr so much
as to suggest that the effort to use his quote to support YECism is
misplaced.

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Murray Hogg <muzhogg@netspace.net.au>
wrote:

> Hi Jon (and David Opderbeck!),
>
> I hope you won't be too put-out if I venture to defend Barr from some of
> the criticisms you make of him in your post?
>
> I'd like to offer the following observations;
>
> First, Barr's letter to Watson is clearly intended not as a categorical
> statement about all OT or Hebrew scholars. Rather, he clearly states "as far
> as I know" etc. I suppose that the remark about world-class universities
> further restricts the scope - but it's not likely that we'll ever understand
> precisely what Barr meant by "world-class" - although see my remarks in the
> next paragraph.
>
> Second as a reputable scholar in the field, I think that Barr has every
> right to (1) make a determination about what constitutes a "world-class"
> university and (2) make a general comment about what views are held by
> scholars at same. In any case, one might turn the objection you raise on its
> head by making the obvious point that a university is deemed "world-class"
> precisely because the views of its scholars are deemed worthy of wide
> familiarity within their field of expertise. In which case, citing one or
> two instances of scholars of whom Barr was (apparently) ignorant may prove
> not that Barr was wrong, but that the universities in question are actually
> not, in fact, "world-class" because their faculty were insufficiently
> well-known to merit Barr's attention.
>
> Third, without wishing any slight upon John Walton or Moody Bible
> Institute, I note that Walton received his PhD in Hebrew Studies in 1981,
> and from then until 2001 taught at Moody Bible Institute. Given that Barr
> was writing in 1984, then Walton had, at that time, only three years of
> teaching at Moody under his belt. Further, his first serious work in OT
> scholarship "Ancient Israelite Literature in Its Cultural Context: A Survey
> of parallels between biblical and ancient Near Eastern texts" appeared in
> 1989. Again, I have no wish to impugn either Walton nor Moody, but nobody
> would credibly say that an unpublished author with three years at Moody
> under his belt is a credible counter-instance to Barr's claim.
>
> I might suggest that much the same logic applies in the case of those
> scholars cited by David Opderbeck. Blocher's first publication on Genesis
> ("In the Beginning: The Opening Chapters of Genesis") appeared in 1984.
> Whilst John Collins was appointed at Covenant in 1994 with his commentary on
> Genesis 1-4 appearing in 2006. Whilst Blocher therefore cuts it fine, it
> would still seem that neither are credible counter instances to Barr's
> remarks as to the state of OT and Hebrew scholarship in 1984.
>
> Of course, I realize that appeal to such scholars may demonstrate that the
> landscape of Hebrew and OT studies has shifted since the time of Barr making
> his remarks - but I do think Barr deserves to be defended from accusations
> that his position was "a sham". Particularly so when those accusations are
> based on clear anachronisms.
>
> Indeed, who knows what Barr might write today if he were given the
> opportunity to revisit the issue?
>
> Kindest Regards (again),
> Murray Hogg
> Pastor, East Camberwell Baptist Church, Victoria, Australia
> Post-Grad Student (MTh), Australian College of Theology
>
>
> Further, the statement itself seems to me a fallacy of generalization,
>> because how does Barr know every single professor of Hebrew or OT
>> scholarship? Given that we've had over a century of evangelical and
>> Catholic scholars accommodating Christian thought to Darwinian science and
>> modernist Biblical interpretations, I find it very difficult to believe that
>> it's even close to being true, at least of their personal opinions.
>> Further, I believe it is a matter of fact that there are reputable Hebrew
>> scholars who question even the supposed original meaning of the text (I'm
>> thinking of John Walton, and you may be more familiar with others of
>> repute), whether they are "professors at world-class universities" or not.
>> It seems to me that both Barr's statement and AIG's use of it are a sham.--
>>
>>
>
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-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
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