Hi Rich,
You wrote:
“ID nowhere admits that there is a lack of correlation between DNA and organizational complexity. Why are not the lay people told there is such a foundational problem with Intelligent Design?”
It depends on what version of ID you are talking about. If you are talking about a creationist-like version, which has little-to-no room for evolution and natural selection, then yes, you have a point. Independently created/designed organisms leave us little reason to expect a lack of correlation between DNA and organizational complexity. But if we are talking about an evolutionary version of ID, one where design works through evolution and recruits natural selecion (as I would argue), then this does not constitute any foundational problem that I can see.
-Mike Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Blinne
To: Randy Isaac
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Biologic Institute
On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Randy Isaac <randyisaac@comcast.net> wrote:
I'm reaching my four post limit uncharacteristically early in the day.
I wanted to note the public announcement of the website of the Biologic Institute http://biologicinstitute.org/
Those of you were wondering about the science stimulated by ID will want to watch this space. Note the various statements of the institute and the members. Both Gonzalez (who is going to Grove City College to teach) and Sternberg are part of the group which was actually founded in 2005.
I hope this listserv can avoid gratuitous ID bashing when discussing this institute and its output but can dispassionately assess the arguments and logic put forward. I continue to feel that neither non-ID nor ID folks have been able to get to the core issues but are spending too much time on superficial sparring. Perhaps we can dig a little deeper as we look at the papers these folks put out.
Randy
Before I do a more detailed analysis, I would like to say how happy it was when I found out the Dr. Gonzalez' career has not been destroyed by the late "unpleasantness". The web site stated that he has an associate professor position at Grove City College starting August 1. It should come as no surprise that no secular university even interviewed him. One of the few thing that Expelled got right in my opinion is the guilt by association for Dr. Gonzalez so I suspect he probably will continue to get limited public funds for any future research. Because of that I have a concern that the facilities at GCC (a robotically controlled 20 inch scope) can support his research. So, unless groups like the Biologic Institute pony up the cash I predict not a whole lot coming from him. Nevertheless, this looks like a win all the way around. GCC is now able to add an Astronomy minor hopefully providing a quality science education in a Christian environment. I think I can speak for all of us and wish Dr. Gonzalez all the best in his future endeavors.
Speaking of GCC, the Intelligent Design Movement could learn on how to do this debate "right". Note the following agenda from last year's discusion on evolution and ID at GCC:
http://www.gcc.edu/Conference_examines_evolution,_intelligent_design.php
GROVE CITY, Pa. – The Grove City College Society for Science, Faith and Technology and The Center for Vision & Values at Grove City College will host a one-day conference Feb. 7 on "Creatively Seeking a Creation Story: Evolution and Intelligent Design in America." All lectures will be given in the Sticht Lecture Hall in the Hall of Arts and Letters on campus and are free and open to the public.The conference follows a series of book talks this fall on "Species of Origins: America's Search for a Creation Story" by Karl Giberson and Donald Yerxa. The authors examine America's conversation about creation and evolution and argue that the real issue is the confrontation between two worldviews: modern naturalistic science and traditional Judeo-Christian religions.
Scholars from various institutions will continue the theme with presentations on the historical, philosophical and scientific issues surrounding the two creation theories of evolution and intelligent design.
The conference schedule follows. Question-and-answer periods will take place between presentations.
9 a.m. "Intelligent Design, Natural Science, and their Relationship" by Dr. Howard J. Van Till, Professor of Physics and Astronomy, Emeritus, Calvin College
11 a.m. "Evolution and Design: Beyond the 'or' Wars" by Dr. Jeff Schloss, Professor of Biology, Westmont College
3 p.m. "Intelligent Design: Revolutionary Science or Reactionary Religion?" by Dr. Ronald L. Numbers, Hilldale and William
Coleman Professor of the History of Science and Medicine, University of Wisconsin-Madison
7 p.m. "Blind Evolution or Intelligent Design?" by Dr. William A. Dembski, Research Professor in Philosophy, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
8 p.m. Panel discussion with Van Till, Schloss, Numbers and Dembski
The Society for Science, Faith and Technology is part of the Local Societies Initiative of the Metanexus Institute on Religion and Science. For more information about the conference, please contact Dr. Kevin Seybold at (724) 458-2002 or ksseybold@gcc.edu.
Bios on the conference speakers follow:
Dr. Howard Van Till received his Ph.D. from Michigan State University and taught in the physics and astronomy department at Calvin College until the fall of 1997. He has researched condensed-matter physics and in astronomy and has begun studying the relationship between the natural sciences and Christianity. He has published several books in this area, the most well-known of which is "The Fourth Day: What the Bible and the Heavens are Telling Us about the Creation." Although he is now Professor Emeritus at Calvin, Van Till remains very active working in the area of the science/faith interface.
Dr. Jeff Schloss has an undergraduate degree in biology from Wheaton College and a Ph.D. in ecology and evolutionary biology from Washington University in St. Louis. He serves on the editorial and advisory boards of numerous journals and organizations relating science and religion including "Zygon," the "Journal of Theology and Science," and "Science and Christian Belief." Recent books include "Evolution and Ethics: Human Morality in Biological and Religious Perspective," and "Altruism and Altruistic Love: Science, Philosophy, and Religion in Dialogue." Schloss' teaching duties at Westmont are in the areas of ecology (general, physiological and tropical) and biology and faith.
Dr. Ronald L. Numbers is the Hilldale and William Coleman Professor of the History of Science and Medicine at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. He has written extensively on the history of science and religion and is an expert on the history of creationism in America. After receiving a B.A. (mathematics and physics) from Southern Adventist University, Numbers went to Florida State University where he received a M.A. in history followed by a Ph.D. in history from the University of California, Berkeley. His many books include "God and Nature: Historical Essays on the Encounter between Christianity and Science, When Science and Christianity Meet," "Darwinism Comes to America," and the highly acclaimed "The Creationists," recently republished in an expanded edition by Harvard University Press.
Dr. William Dembski is research professor in philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. He is also a senior fellow with Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture in Seattle, Wash. A graduate of the University of Illinois at Chicago with a B.A. in psychology, he went on to earn an M.S. in statistics, and a Ph.D. in philosophy. He also received a doctorate in mathematics from the University of Chicago in 1988 and a master of divinity degree from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1996. He is the author of several books including "The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance Through Small Probabilities, No Free Lunch: Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Intelligence, and Debating Design: From Darwin to DNA." Note Jeff Schloss' topic of taking the "or" out of design or evolution. The Biologic Institute claims the research is already underway and that it some how undermines "Darwinism". Why this insistence? Like David C., I also fail to see how any of the papers cited support their conclusion. Putting the word "machine" in an abstract is not an argument.
Now back to my analysis. One of the most cited papers in the list is this:
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1017/S1464793104006657
Why repetitive DNA is essential to genome function
This paper talks about one kind of non-coding DNA which is unfortunately known popularly as junk DNA. ID has been arguing that junk DNA has functions and this continues that argument. Note they also ignored that mainstream science also noted the same thing.
For example note this paper which cites Sternberg:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/114118804/abstract
The relationship between non-protein-coding DNA and eukaryotic complexity
Wow!! Did ID finally hit the big time and the "Darwinists" admit that all this information theory is good science? Sorry, Charlie. People want tuna that tastes good.
First, here's how the paper is quoted (Ref. 47):
The other major source of raw evolutionary material and of variation in genome size is transposon-derived sequences,(37–40) which comprise almost half of the human and mouse genomes(41,42) (Table 2). These sequences are often but somewhat pejoratively referred to as 'repetitive' sequences. Nonetheless, there is increasing evidence that at least some have acquired functions (for examples see Refs (43–46)), but it remains unclear what proportion have done so and therefore what contribution they make to genetic complexity in different lineages.(29,47)
The very first line of the abstract pretty much summarizes ID's dirty little secret.
There are two intriguing paradoxes in molecular biology—the inconsistent relationship between organismal complexity and (1) cellular DNA content and (2) the number of protein-coding genes—referred to as the C-value and G-value paradoxes, respectively.
How did Taft et al solve this problem?
This article reviews the relationship of cellular DNA content and gene number to organismal complexity. We show that incongruities in [C-value paradox] are due primarily to varying ploidy in different lineages. We suggest that the lack of correlation in the [G-value paradox] is explained by the evolution of an increasingly sophisticated architecture to control gene expression and gene product diversity during multicellular ontogeny, involving both the expansion of cis-acting regulatory elements acting at multiple levels (e.g. chromatin architecture, transcription, splicing, RNA modification and editing, mRNA translation and RNA stability), and the expansion of non-protein-coding genes specifying regulatory RNAs that fulfill a wide range of functions in cell and developmental biology.
Two points.
1. ID nowhere admits that there is a lack of correlation between DNA and organizational complexity. Why are not the lay people told there is such a foundational problem with Intelligent Design?
2. Note one of the functions of so-called junk DNA is a regulatory one. The solution above to the paradox is an evo-devo one. Note that ID's new text book spends life in the past by talking Hoekel's embryos but ignoring the explosion of evo-devo research in the past decade. One thing I didn't mention previously about Minnich's paper is that when the bacterium in question went non-motile the flagella structure remained intact but was down regulated by a 12-bp frameshift. By ignoring/minimizing regulation, ID confuses design with a bill of materials. In fact, how regulation works might actually show intelligent design but the irrational opposition to evolution keeps ID from a more fruitful area of research. By doing so they would move from trailing-edge 19th Century research to leading-edge 21st Century research in one fell swoop.
See here for more details: http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v8/n12/full/nrg2219.html
Rich Blinne
Member ASA
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Received on Mon May 12 23:27:48 2008
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