Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)

Bernie said: There is no such thing as a uniform basic Christian
belief in all the
> details- everyone has their own version- for all religions.

The devil's advocate responds: then why do you insist that your
religious / Christian "reason for living" or "basis for morality" is
better than atheistic options? I (the devil's advocate) say there is
no "Christian" reason for living or basis for morality -- there is
only a hodgepodge of conflicting "Christian" views, which are mutually
exclusive, internally contradictory, and historically unstable.

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
> David said:
> " What you have is a private belief about yourself that you find
> comforting;
> good for you, but why should I care about your private belief?""
>
> There is no such thing as a uniform basic Christian belief in all the
> details- everyone has their own version- for all religions.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 2:57 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
>
> Bernie said: But as an atheist, can you only do that as long as you
> put the idea out of
> > your head that everything is futile? I think so.
>
> I respond: to play devil's advocate here, I think a fair response
> from an atheist is,"no, I don't think it's 'futile' -- I think
> enjoyment is a good end in itself, period. If you think otherwise,
> that's fine, I'll just shrug my shoulders and enjoy the evening."
>
> Bernie said: I guess that depends on your theology. Personally, my
> theology says "I know the way, but I don't know what happens to all
> the others."
>
> I respond: again, to play devil's advocate here, I think a fair
> response from an atheist is, "it's nice that you can pick and choose
> like that, but that isn't really Christianity anymore, is it? What
> you have is a private belief about yourself that you find comforting;
> good for you, but why should I care about your private belief?"
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > David said:
> > "I'm enjoying sitting at my desk right now as the spring breeze blows
> > through the trees outside."
> >
> >
> >
> > But as an atheist, can you only do that as long as you put the idea
> out of
> > your head that everything is futile? I think so. Maybe you can enjoy
> the
> > moment because you are not burdened with the thought of a coming
> > destruction, since you are a believer.
> >
> >
> >
> > What about those who never heard of the gospel or loved ones who will
> burn
> > in hell because they reject Christ? I guess that depends on your
> theology.
> > Personally, my theology says "I know the way, but I don't know what
> happens
> > to all the others."
> >
> >
> >
> > It is like this. Suppose we are all in a pit and need to be rescued.
> > Someone throws down a rope to us. I can say I know the way out and
> take
> > advantage of it. But what about those who don't know or don't care or
> > reject the rope? Some say they will die. I don't know-I just know the
> way
> > out, and will deal with that.
> >
> >
> >
> > ...Bernie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> On
> > Behalf Of David Opderbeck
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 12:22 PM
> > To: Dehler, Bernie
> > Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
> >
> >
> >
> > I dunno -- I think I'm a bit of an existentialist even though I'm a
> >
> > Christian, so "What is there to enjoy if you come from nothing and go
> >
> > to nothing" just isn't very compelling to me. I'm enjoying sitting at
> >
> > my desk right now as the spring breeze blows through the trees
> >
> > outside. I enjoy biting into a juicy, just-grilled cheeseburger and
> >
> > washing it down with a cold beer. I enjoy laughing at my little boy's
> >
> > silly jokes as we grill marshmallows by the fire pit. I enjoy
> >
> > snuggling up with my wife. These are little self-contained moments of
> >
> > enjoyment that don't necessarily depend on any overarching religious
> >
> > worldview. I could understand a philosophy of just living
> >
> > moment-to-moment like this.
> >
> >
> >
> > And I'm not so sure it's immediately self-evident that a Christian
> >
> > worldview is better than a moment-to-moment existentialism. On the
> >
> > one hand, a view of a broader, eternal purpose can make those little
> >
> > moments even more enriching -- I can have a moment, when I'm laughing
> >
> > with my boys under the stars by the fire, of transcendence, what C.S.
> >
> > Lewis called experiencing the numinous, when I sense the creator of
> >
> > all things laughing along and extending that laughter into eternity.
> >
> >
> >
> > On the other hand, sometimes the weight of eternity can rob moments
> >
> > like that of their joy. For what if my little boys grow up to reject
> >
> > Christ, either despite my best efforts or because I fail them? And
> >
> > what of my youngest boy, who can't understand words very well because
> >
> > of a neurological impairment -- will he be able to hear and receive
> >
> > the gospel, or is this little person whose life I value far more than
> >
> > my own already doomed? And what of my friends and neighbors, and the
> >
> > billions around the world who will never hear of Christ? How can I
> >
> > enjoy my marshmallow believing they will suffer the torments of hell
> >
> > for eternity? And this is not to mention the intellectual and
> >
> > emotional demands of trying to understand an ancient, authoritative
> >
> > scripture while living in a modern, scientific age in a community of
> >
> > fellow believers who don't even recognize why this represents a
> >
> > tension.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lest the atheists lurking here take aid and comfort from this, I still
> >
> > think a Christian worldview is richer than existentialism, maybe
> >
> > precisely because it causes me to grapple with this kind of question,
> >
> > and even more because I'm convinced of the beauty of the Christ who
> >
> > has made himself known to me. But I'd never do so far as to say that
> >
> > atheists can't live meaningful lives.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Dehler, Bernie
> <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > First- I did not give that Scripture as a back-up to my point. It
> was an
> > add-on trying to tie the issue of resurrection with meaning for life.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Second- my point had nothing to do with the 'basis for morality
> argument."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Third- my point had everything to do with the "meaning of life" and
> > "purpose of life."
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > David said:
> >
> > > "If nothing else, many would say, "my reason for living is that I
> enjoy
> > life -- what more do I need?""
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I used to think that Atheists could think that and be ok with it.
> Then I
> > heard an atheist philosopher saying that that viewpoint was nonsense
> and
> > folly. What is there to enjoy if you come from nothing and go to
> nothing?
> > It is like trying to enjoy a good dance or food on the Titanic as it
> is
> > sinking. How can you truly enjoy anything knowing it is temporary and
> > fleeting? If you were sent to be executed, could you really enjoy
> your last
> > meal, no matter how fancy it was and who you dined with? Only if you
> > shut-out of your mind the coming destruction... and that is what
> atheists have
> > to do in order to feel ok. I'm suggesting to open that up, like
> opening a
> > tightly bandaged wound, so it can get some air and possibly heal.
> This hope
> > for eternal life is built into all humans (you might argue animals,
> also, in
> > the will to live).
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I would love to press people like Dawkins and really get into their
> head
> > to see how they respond to the emptiness and futility of life, in
> their
> > mindset. I think they do it by suppressing thoughts about it... so I
> wonder
> > what would happen when that thought is dug-up and exposed to light.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > And George- if God died, then I guess it is "every man for himself."
> We'd
> > live in such a way as to try to have a well-functioning
> society-relying
> > totally on logic and reason, as the atheists do now.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > ...Bernie
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > ________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > From: David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> >
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:47 AM
> >
> > > To: Dehler, Bernie
> >
> > > Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I think this is a fair question in many ways, Bernie, but I don't
> think 1
> > Cor. 15 is the right text. The context there is whether Christians,
> who
> > base their lives and eternal hopes around belief in the risen Christ,
> have
> > wasted their lives if Christ hasn't been raised -- and Paul's answer
> is a
> > resounding yes. But if Christ has not been raised, that doesn't mean
> > non-Christians have no hope -- in fact, they would presumably have
> more hope
> > than us -- v. 19, "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we
> are to
> > be pitied above all men," suggests clearly that others would be better
> off
> > than us in that event. So the point in this particular passage isn't
> that
> > unbelievers have no hope; it's that believers in Christ have hope in
> Chirst
> > only if Christ really was raised.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > If I were an atheist, I'd get really annoyed by "you have no reason
> for
> > living" and "you have no basis for your morality" arguments. Of
> course many
> > atheists can articulate reasons for living and reasons for morality;
> they
> > aren't all dark nihlists who are ready to hang themselves. If nothing
> else,
> > many would say, "my reason for living is that I enjoy life -- what
> more do I
> > need?" and "my basis for morality is that everyone should have a shot
> at
> > enjoying life -- why do I have to explain myself further to you?"
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > IMHO, reason for living / reason for morality arguments shouldn't be
> > played as argumentative trump cards. They should be offered, I think,
> in
> > ways that show the winsomeness of a living faith in Christ. Hopefully
> the
> > atheist will be attracted to the living Christ and realize the even
> deeper,
> > even richer, even more meaningful prospect of a life of faith.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Dehler, Bernie
> <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > You might want to ask Dan Barker what reason for living he has.
> I've
> >
> > > heard the atheist response is "live for the moment" because that is
> all
> >
> > > you have, but I've heard other philosophers say that that is even
> >
> > > meaningless. I think they can only survive by blocking the question
> out
> >
> > > of their mind. Everyone has the hope for eternal life in some way,
> even
> >
> > > if it is a closet fantasy. Without that hope of eternal life,
> >
> > > everything is futile. We come from nothing and go to nothing.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 1 Cor. 15:
> >
> > > 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has
> been
> >
> > > raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is
> useless
> >
> > > and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be
> false
> >
> > > witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised
> >
> > > Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead
> are
> >
> > > not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not
> been
> >
> > > raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is
> >
> > > futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have
> fallen
> >
> > > asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in
> >
> > > Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> On
> >
> > > Behalf Of rcmetcalf@thinkagain.us
> >
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:50 AM
> >
> > > To: asa@calvin.edu
> >
> > > Subject: [asa] Feedback wanted
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Hi All,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I only recently joined this mailing list after a visit with Randy
> Isaac.
> >
> > > I've been a member of ASA for quite a while, but somehow missed
> these
> >
> > > discussions (in part because my time is rather full already!). Randy
> >
> > > urged
> >
> > > me to join and I've enjoyed following some of the threads.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Since many of you have backgrounds in physics, I have a small
> request...
> >
> > > My visit with Randy was preceded by an invitation to Tufts to debate
> Dan
> >
> > > Barker on the Resurrection. I recently placed my opening
> presentation
> >
> > > for
> >
> > > the debate on YouTube.com. I was hoping some of you might be willing
> to
> >
> > > look at it and offer feedback here in a thread. Constructive
> criticism,
> >
> > > comments, praise, etc... are all welcome. The video had to be split
> into
> >
> > > four parts since YouTube has a 10 minute upload limit. The total
> time is
> >
> > > around 35 minutes. Search for Tufts Metcalf-Barker Debate to find
> it.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I'll be lecturing on this on Saturday at New Life Church here in
> >
> > > Colorado
> >
> > > Springs, so your feedback will be quite valuable. Thank you so much!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Blessings & grace,
> >
> > > RC Metcalf
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >
> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >
> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > --
> >
> > > David W. Opderbeck
> >
> > > Associate Professor of Law
> >
> > > Seton Hall University Law School
> >
> > > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > David W. Opderbeck
> >
> > Associate Professor of Law
> >
> > Seton Hall University Law School
> >
> > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>
>
> --
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.