Re: [asa] big bang question ... and the start of matter...

The model I sketched is only an illustration. The "particles" in it could be anything - electrons, baseballs or whatever. There are other conservation that (presumably) have to be obeyed besides energy. E.g., you couldn't have an electron and a neutron since that wouldn't conserve electric charge.

Theories that try to be more realistic have to use some quantum version or generalization of Einstein's general relativity, not just the pasted together pieces of special relativity, Newtonian gravity and elementary quantum mechanics that I sketched & generally deal with an entire idealized universe rather than a single particle. (But a sufficiently idealized universe has only one degree of freedom - expansion or contraction - & thus can be described mathematically as a single particle.) One such model is that of Alex Vilenkin, who talks about the quantum tunneling of a universe from "nothing." (Whether it's an absolute "nothing," the nihil negativa or denial of being is another matter!) He deals with this near the end of his recent book Many Worlds in One (Hill & Wang, 2006).

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Dehler, Bernie
  To: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:01 PM
  Subject: RE: [asa] big bang question ... and the start of matter...

  Like they say in the "expelled" movie- there is a time you have no life and then a time you have life.

  On the existence part, is there a time with no particles at all, then you have your very first particle? Any idea what this very first particle is? Is it one electron orbiting a neutron (hydrogen)? Sounds like you are saying there are some theories as to how or what this first mass might be, but they are still just competing theories at this point?

  George said:
  "The transition from a state of no particles to one of 2 (or of N) particles would be discontinuous but quantum theory allows such "jumps." "

  When you say going from no particles to 1 or 2, what do you mean by 'particle' (is it an electron?).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: George Murphy [mailto:gmurphy@raex.com]
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 3:05 PM
  To: Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
  Subject: Re: [asa] big bang question ... and the start of matter...

  Bernie -

  Briefly, matter could come into existence from a state of zero energy if its mc^2 energy plus any kinetic energy were exactly cancelled by its negative gravitational potential energy. In the simplest case of 2 particles of mass m at a distance r, 2mc^2 - Gm^2/r = 0. In a more general case of a homogeneous distribution of matter, this corresponds to the spatially closed universes of Einstein's theory. The transition from a state of no particles to one of 2 (or of N) particles would be discontinuous but quantum theory allows such "jumps." Thus you need a correct quantum theory of gravitation to make this work rigorously & whether we have that or not is a matter of debate.

  Shalom
  George
  http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Dehler, Bernie

    To: asa@calvin.edu

    Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:12 PM

    Subject: [asa] big bang question ... and the start of matter...

    A question about the big bang.

    As I understand it, at the moment 'before' the big bang, there was nothing material- not even an electron. After the big-bang, energy started converting to matter, according to

    E=MC^2

    Question- how can this equation balance at the very start, where M approaches 0? You have M approaches zero on the right side of the equation, and E approaching infinity on the left, correct? C is just a (relatively small) constant, so it can't have much of any effect. I'm wondering how this equation works, with the left side approaching infinity and the right approaching zero; but it is balanced.?

    I understand that the theory breaks down as you get closer to the start of the big bang- any idea how close you can get to the big bang before breaks-how many atoms exist?

    The "expelled" movie makes a big deal of science not knowing how life came from non-life. I wonder also about atoms coming from no matter-at one point there is no matter, then at another you've got electrons orbiting a nucleus.

    If you can explain, please keep it short- to a few paragraphs.

    ...Bernie

    "It's turtles all the way down!"

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Received on Mon May 5 19:15:10 2008