Re: [asa] Amazing Proteins

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com> wrote:
> Hi PvM,

> "As I expected, this is far more an issue of metaphysics than science
> as science can succesfully deal with the blind watchmaker scenario, a
> scenario which you also seem to accept with the addition that the
> initial conditions were somehow 'perfect'."
>
> Yes, science does deal successfully with the blind watchmaker scenario, but
> just how much of a scenario would there be if proteins did not exist?

As I said, do you have any reason to believe how much of a scenario it
would be or is this more a rethorical question? As I said, front
loading arguments have a limited scientific relevance as they are
indistinguishable from initial conditions that are natural.

> [As an aside, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think the initial
> conditions were 'perfect,' as I have never claimed this.]

So what if proteins did not exist?

> "Of course, I do not really have to show that there are macromolecules
> that could do better as I accept that proteins have out performed the
> RNA world."
>

> That proteins outperformed the RNA world tells us that evolution works
> better with proteins. So we are back again wondering just how effective the
> blind watchmaker is without proteins.

And some wonder, and some do science.

> "We can all marvel at the level of 'coincidence' but tthat is just a
> matter of personal taste as you similarly have no evidence and accept
> fully the scientific hypothesis."

> But this begs the question. Is it really coincidence?

We humans have a hard time dealing with this and I understand your
concerns but I see little relevance to the question.

> "Of course there is always a reason to think which is why you present
> your hypothetical argument. However, beyond just thought, the concept
> of evolvability is one of significant interest and the concept that
> evolution can improve its probabilities to succeed, hardly seems
> controversial, you even accept the concept of learning. Since
> variation has genetic components, evolution can in fact 'tune'
> variation to improve evolution's successes."

>
> Indeed. But evolution can do this because it has proteins to work with as
> its design material. If we were to strip away proteins from evolution,
> perhaps we would likewise strip away evolvability (explaining why the RNA
> world never had a chance once proteins appeared).

Sure perhaps all we had would RNA world. But so what.

Still avoiding my question though

> > You are getting closer to addressing my question though.
> >
> > But you still have not answered by question. How do we turn this into
> > a scientifically relevant position? How would ID explain all this? If
> > I understand your position correctly you hold that at a particular
> > instance in time we face a set of initial conditions that led to
> > present day situation. Your argument is that perhaps the initial
> > conditions were set up for evolution to be successful? That is an
> > interesting idea but unnecessary at best and scientifically irrelevant
> > lest we can argue why there is a non natural requirement for the
> > initial conditions to have existed.
> >
> > Looking back it is incredibly unlikely that the rock that rolled down
> > the slope ended up where it did and yet it had to end up somewhere. We
> > may see a purpose in how the rock ended up exactly where it did but
> > this seems not much dissimilar from the puddle of water that marveled
> > at how the impression in the ground exactly matched its shape. And
> > while it was evaporating it was still pondering the significance of
> > this coincidence. My apologies to Douglas Adams.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
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Received on Sun May 4 02:25:47 2008