Re: [asa] Neo-Darwinism and God's action

I dont want to demphasize the importance of our stewardship of creation. We
clearly have a special role here. As I said in a prior thread, all of
creation suffers because of our imperfect stewardship of this creation.

But, I think that humans differ, in kind, from animals and the rest of
creation in one very important way. We have discussed this here before and
I know that Bergy disagrees with this. But, as I see it, humans are the
only part of creation (aside from angels) that have the potential to live
eternally. We have an eternal soul, to put it another way. As a result of
this, humans, unlike animals that have similar emotional, psychological, and
cognitive, abilities to a degree like humans, are the only ones capable of
sin. Christ died to save mankind, not animals. Animals are part of
creation, but have no potential for immortality. I know Burgy is going to
disagree with this, he expects his pets to go to heaven. But he has to
answer the question; Where does it stop? If your dog and cat can go to
heaven, what about the fish you had for dinner, the fly you swatted, or the
bacteria you killed when you washed off the counter. Burgy's position
sounds like Janism.

Humans are seperate from animals because 1) we are stewards of creation, and
2) we are uniquely spiritual, potentially eternal beings, capable of sin,
and capable of being forgiven by grace (even the Janists would grant that,
but they would call it enlightenment).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christine Smith" <christine_mb_smith@yahoo.com>
To: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Neo-Darwinism and God's action

> Hi Greg,
>
> First, a correction--my background is not biology
> (actually, that's my weakest scientific
> discipline)--my B.S. is in geology, I have a minor in
> geography, and I have an M.S. in Environmental
> Management. :)
>
> Second, you perhaps attribute to me far more academic
> background than I deserve by referencing Wilson and
> Trivers--I am relatively new to the faith-science
> scene (at least, new to the depth of the discussion);
> I've merely heard of Wilson and have not a clue who
> Trivers is...it was only last year I discovered C. S.
> Lewis, and right now I'm enjoying my first reading of
> a work by N. T. Wright--so you'll have to excuse my
> ignorance/youth when it comes to the references you
> speak of :)
>
> To the point however...I think the phrase "advanced
> ants" is really too simplistic a description of what I
> am saying. I am not arguing that we are equal to
> animals in status (as many "New Age" philosophies
> would say) or that our uniqueness as humans should be
> undermined. On the contrary--Being designated by God
> as stewards of creation--essentially being delegated
> lordship of the earth--and then being biologically
> equipped for that task through advancement, clearly
> sets us apart from the rest of His creatures--it is
> not merely that we've evolved a new (or advanced)
> capability, like being able to fly or mutating a gene
> to produce a new hair color. It is nothing less than a
> gift from God--it is a bestowing of God's grace upon
> us, and in that sense, it transforms us--we are not
> different, but yet we are. It is, if you will,
> analogous to the Incarnation--Christ was 100% human,
> yet He was more than man--He was literally God.
> Likewise, we are 100% animal, yet we are more than
> animal--we are in a sense, (lower case) god--made in
> (upper case) God's image. Come to think of it, perhaps
> it would be more accurate to say that just as Christ
> was simultaneously both different in degree (more
> "advanced" human in the sense that He represented the
> best we could ever be) and in kind from us (He was
> also God), so it is with our relationship with
> animals. We represent the fullness of the innate
> potential which does manifest itself (to one degree or
> another) in all animals to be rational, ethical, and
> emotional beings; but yet, the new function that God
> bestowed upon us set us forever apart from them...
>
> Anyway, all must be held in tension--in the
> appropriate balance--for one to understand the reality
> of our status. And I think it would not be wrong to
> think that part of the reason God made us in this way,
> is so that we could better comprehend our relationship
> with Him and so that we could be better stewards of
> creation, seeing as we do from both sides of the
> coin--the creaturely side and the side of lordship.
>
> Anyway, this took way longer to try and articulate
> than I intended, so back to work with me!
> In Christ,
> Christine
>
> --- Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> Burgy seeks an 'OBJECTIVE' "attribute of humanity,"
>> yet all the while without, it seems, realising the
>> importance of the 'SUBJECTIVE' in this case. Just
>> the facts!? The degree/kind distinction between
>> human beings and other animals is problematic when
>> only natural scientists are allowed to pronounce on
>> it. When reflexive (social-humanitarian) science are
>> given room to interpret alongside of positive
>> (natural-physical) science, which is what Burgy
>> seems to ask for in terms of 'objectivity,' then a
>> welcome balance of views can be achieved.
>>
>> Desmond Morris recently confirmed during a BBC
>> interview that 'human beings are only animals,
>> nothing more,' but that they (actually 'we' - but he
>> only speaks about us 'objectively') are the most
>> extraordinary animal in existence. He is of course
>> speaking as a zoologist when he says this, and not
>> as a human person! If he were to include his human
>> person (a multi-dimensional existence) into the
>> conversation, then questions of spirit (IoG) and
>> kind-difference would be forthcoming (the
>> philosophers would require it!). Such seems to be
>> the situation with Christine and Burgy denying
>> differences in 'kind' (oh, that awful word - just
>> like 'mutations'!) also.
>>
>> Let's step back and take an 'objective' view of
>> who is speaking here. Christine and Burgy are both
>> 'natural' scientists (biology, physics). David and I
>> are both human-social scientists or scholars (law,
>> sociology). By acknowleging a supra-natural (not
>> 'super') dimension into the discourse of human
>> beings, it becomes rather obvious (elephants writing
>> Shakespeare - what a hoot like Horton, David! -)
>> that enough of a 'difference' is present that it
>> doesn't really matter if you say 'kind' or 'degree.'
>> We could just as easily focus on the 'uniqueness' or
>> the 'special' character of (note: I DID NOT WRITE
>> 'nature of') human beings. 'One of these things is
>> NOT like the other ones' (as they used to say on
>> Sesame Street)! The bid to make same what is not
>> same seems curious to me.
>>
>> Just to add one thing, perhaps to fuel the fire,
>> though it has almost gone out. IFF, human beings
>> were to lose their/our uniqueness in the bid for
>> continuity and karmic sensibility, as eVo psych's,
>> sociobiologists and anti-religious zoologists would
>> prefer, then the entire REALM of human-social
>> science, at least in its classical formulation,
>> would be compromised. Human-social thought is
>> predicated on the belief that human beings are
>> 'unique,' 'special' different in 'kind' and not
>> 'degree' than other animals. It was one of the great
>> (meaning big, not necessarily good) contributions of
>> Darwinian thought, perpetuated in the mainly
>> agnostic or atheist (exceptions: Dobzhansky, Fisher,
>> T. de Chardin) 'modern synthesis' a.k.a.
>> neo-Darwinism (which was the original topic of this
>> thread), that human beings could be considered
>> somehow 'alike' with every other entity in
>> existence. See S. Fuller's The New Sociological
>> Imagination re: this S. Pinkerian perspective.
>>
>> Yes, Christine, I agree, stewardship/lordship and
>> not 'mastery' or 'control of nature.' I am glad you
>> agree with a 'functional' difference in 'kind.' But
>> let us not consider ourselves as created in the
>> image of God being simply equivalent to 'advanced
>> (you used the word) ants,' as E.O. Wilson (and
>> further, Trivers) does. Do you not recognise the
>> danger and compromise in that?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gregory
>>
>>
>>
>> Christine Smith <christine_mb_smith@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> If I might interject...I largely concur with Burgy
>> in
>> that I see differences in morality, emotions,
>> rationality, etc. between us and animals in terms of
>> degree, not kind...by that I mean that
>> fundamentally,
>> the root of animals' and humans' "intangible"
>> qualities are the same i.e. they are of the same
>> kind,
>> and that animals are simply less advanced in these
>> areas than humans are i.e. they're are differences
>> in
>> degree.
>>
>> To your point/question regarding why animals don't
>> produce great writings, works of art, etc. A couple
>> of
>> thoughts--one, to remind you of what you yourself
>> wrote, how do we know what is in an animals' mind?
>> In
>> truth, our assumptions are nothing more or less than
>> guesses. Who knows---when a bird sings a song, who
>> says that there isn't more to it than just
>> attracting
>> a mate? If apes were biologically capable of
>> writing,
>> maybe they would write poetry? Since we are not a
>> bird
>> or an ape, we will never know for sure. I say this,
>> not because I actually believe that birds and apes
>> are
>> talking about the meaning of life when they sing a
>> song or grunt, but only to point out that your
>> critique goes both ways--we can't assume that they
>> experience life in the same depth that we do, but
>> then
>> again, we can't assume they don't. Secondly, as has
>> been pointed out in other threads, infants and
>> mentally disabled individuals also cannot write
>> poetry
>> or talk about the meaning of life or fall in love in
>> the same way normal adult speak of these
>> things--would
>> you also say that because of these biological
>> incapabilities, they also are different in kind, and
>> not just degree, from other humans?
>>
>> I think the bottom line difference here between
>> myself
>> (and Burgy?) and you is our understanding of what it
>> means to be created in the image of God? As I
>> recall,
>> it is the same Hebrew word for "breath of life" that
>> God breathed into both humans and animals--thus, the
>> ONLY distinction between us and animals is this
>> "image" and what that means...from my point of view,
>> this image refers to our ability, like God's, to
>> claim
>> lordship...God has delegated to us lordship
>> (stewardship) of creation--we have been tasked by
>> God
>> within certain parameters, to rule the world and the
>> creatures in it. We have a functional role in
>> creation
>> that is different *in kind*, not just *degree* than
>> animals--both Genesis 1 & 2 testify to this
>> function.
>> To be equipped for that task, we had to possess a
>> higher *degree* of advancement in emotional,
>> ethical,
>> and rational capabilities than other animals do, and
>> so we evolved in a way that brought these abilities
>> out from within us--in fact, I'd argue that having
>> evolved along with and from the rest of God's
>> creatures, it would be a better guess to assume that
>> they have the same (potential) innate emotions,
>> ethical nature, and rational capacities that we do,
>> than to guess that they don't. It has just been
>> according to God's plan and purpose that we were
>> designated for this special function, and equipped
>> accordingly.
>>
>> Anyway, I guess that's all for now--you're right
>> though--fun conversation :)
>>
>> In Christ,
>> Christine
>>
>> --- David Opderbeck wrote:
>>
>> > Ok -- but I thought it was a fun conversation.
>> It'd
>> > be nice to hear more
>> > clearly what you're thinking.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 9:57 AM, j burg
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > On 2/21/08, David Opderbeck
>> > wrote:
>> > > > Burgy said: What I seek, and so far the search
>> > has come up empty, is
>> > > some
>> > > > OBJECTIVE attribute of humanity that would
>> > distinguish this IOG. For
>> > > > me, this has to be a difference of kind, not a
>> > difference of degree.
>> > > >
>> > > > Why is a capacity for understanding of notions
>> > of "good" and "evil" not
>> > > > "objective?" Why is a capacity for producing
>> > sustained ethical
>> > > reflection,
>> > > > ala Aristotle, etc., not "objective?" Why is a
>> > capacity for producing a
>> > > > literary tradition on themes of "the good,"
>> > "justice," and "evil," ala
>> > > > Shakespeare, etc., not "objective?" If that
>> > isn't "objective," what is?
>> > > > How is that fact that elephants have
>> graveyards
>>
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Received on Sat Feb 23 07:40:32 2008