RE: [asa] A graduate student speaks out

No, the professionals cross the line from dishonest to delusional at some
point. Dishonest is way too generous for Ken Ham. If they really believe it,
which I think they do, they are deluded.
 
But on balance, it is the same spiritual delusion that Dawkins is afflicted
with as well and for the same reason, pride.
 
John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David Opderbeck
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:44 PM
To: David Campbell
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] A graduate student speaks out

David C. said: There are occasional young earth arguments for which I am
unable to
find an honest explanation, but delusional seems more appropriate as a
general characterization (of course, the average person in the pew is
merely misled.)

Ok, I'm not defending YECism, but.... I'm really not comfortable with this
kind of characterization. My impression is that most serious YECs are doing
their best to support what they believe is a correct interpretation of
scripture. I think we have to be very careful about calling that a
"delusion," particularly as the "delusion" and "wish-fullfillment" memes are
applied heartily against all of us theists by the new atheism. We all
believe at least some things on the basis of scripture that are hard to
reconcile. I believe the scriptural interpreation of my YEC brothers and
sisters is unsustainable and that they are wrong, but I don't think most are
deluded. Now, there are a few professional YECs whom I believe are just
dishonest, but that's another matter.
 
 
 
 
On Jan 17, 2008 7:59 PM, David Campbell <pleuronaia@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've said it before and I'll say it again, of all the creationists I've
met, including Andy McIntosh, none of them I would say were deliberate
liars. Yes they are willfully self-deluded, because they can't reconcile
what science tells them with their faith.<

There are occasional young earth arguments for which I am unable to
find an honest explanation, but delusional seems more appropriate as a
general characterization (of course, the average person in the pew is
merely misled.) Nevertheless, they are still in violation of the 9th
commandment-presenting wishful thinking as legitimately researched
claims (cf. I Ti 1).

> This was, it turns out a big mistake, and lost me a good deal of
> credibility, because it seems that you had already sent Anderson a
> couple of unsolicited emails in your usual vein, which he considered
> so appalling that he doubted that you were even a Christian! He had
> considered posting them on his blog, but thought better of it because
> he considered what you had written to be a disgrace to the service of
> Christ.

While admitting that Michael is not always the most tactful person in
the world, young earth and antievolutionary claims frequently contain
attacks on anyone who disagrees with them. Unless Anderson objects to
those, too, I think he has a problem. This is why the defense of YEC
with "are you accusing someone who professes to be a Christian of
dishonesty" offends me. Yes, I am accusing someone who accuses me of
dishonesty of dishonesty. If you don't like anyone accusing a
professing Christian of dishonesty, you should not be happy with
almost anything from creation science or popular ID.

Not that this justifies responding in kind, but that there are
significant problems of double standards, not unlike those used by
Dawkins to claim atheists good, religious bad.

--
Dr. David Campbell
425 Scientific Collections
University of Alabama 
"I think of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of clams"
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