Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for evangelical faith??

John, I think you've been reading stuff that is to history, law and politics
what Ken Ham is to science.

On Dec 19, 2007 8:59 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

> David,
>
>
>
> Your sanctimonious soapboxing on the evils of America based on your
> anachronistic application of today's definition of Christian values to
> yesterday avoids the question I originally asked you.
>
>
>
> If not by the blessings of God, then why are America and Northern Europe
> currently the breadbaskets and powerhouses of the world as opposed to "less
> evil" countries like India and China which can barely feed themselves?
>
>
>
> The only reasonable explanation is that God is an accomodationist with us
> in our politics like He is with us in our science.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> To: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> Cc: Clarke Morledge <chmorl@wm.edu>; AmericanScientificAffiliation <
> asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:34:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> evangelical faith??
>
> John said: *The blessing seeking posture and duly instituted "Christian
> government" of the British Empire and most of Northern Europe and early
> America did seem to make them what they are today as opposed to most other
> nations that still developing *
>
> As a generaly matter, it is extraordinarily dangerous, IMHO, to project
> the covenant promises God made to Israel onto any contemporary nation.
> After Christ, there is a new covenant that includes Israel as well as any
> gentile who trusts in Christ, and the blessings and obligations of that
> covenant are experienced in and through the life of the Church.
> Nation-states continue to be given authority by God to restrain evil and do
> justice (Rom. 13), but there is no longer a chosen nation-state,
> politically, genetically, or otherwise.
>
> More particularly, the "Christian government" idea is a gross
> oversimplification of history. In the British Empire, society was highly
> stratified by class and was governed only by wealthy white males.
> Government monopolies such as the East India Tea Company consipired with the
> crown to colonize and repress native people in countries such as India in
> order to increase revenues on tea and other products consumed by the
> wealthy. I don't think most of those folks were wearing "WWJD" bracelets.
>
> In 1619, the first black slaves in America were sold at Jamestown. In
> 1641, that Christian "city on a hill," Massachusetts, legalized black
> slavery. By 1787, the charter of our liberty, the Constitution, applied
> fully only to white males. Women were not given the right to vote, and
> blacks were not considered people who could be "citizens." In 1857, the
> Supreme Court decided the Dred Scott case, in which it affirmed that blacks
> are not "citizens" entitled to any rights under the Constitution. The Court
> noted that the framers of the Constitution considered blacks "beings of an
> inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race,
> either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had
> no rights which the white man was bound to respect." Blacks continued to
> suffer the effects of segregation for more than a century. Again, I don't
> see how this reflects "Christian" principles of government.
> On Dec 19, 2007 6:53 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > David,
> >
> >
> >
> > Herein lies one of the thorny problems of TE or any kind of "E".
> > Whether you believe we started out East of Eden or from a small population
> > out of Africa, at one time all humanity had a level playing field, How then
> > do we explain the vast divergence we see now where some cultures are
> > literally awash with al the benefits of modern wealth and technology yet
> > most of the world lives in poverty? In my mind, the only explanation that is
> > not racist has to be spiritual.
> >
> >
> >
> > We learn from the OT that God instituted some unique and seemingly
> > unfair inheritance patterns with the Jews to make sure the oldest son got
> > half of the family wealth and the all the other siblings split the other
> > half. The interesting twist on this pattern is that it does facilitate the
> > accumulation of capital and most would consider this the historic roots of
> > modern capitalism. In addition, there are many promises in the OT whereby
> > blessings can be attained and curses avoided and there has been a
> > correlation between the nations that historically followed those teachings
> > and the wealth/technology disparity above.
> >
> >
> >
> > The blessing seeking posture and duly instituted "Christian government"
> > of the British Empire and most of Northern Europe and early America did
> > seem to make them what they are today as opposed to most other nations that
> > still developing. But granted in America the Great American Dream was not
> > all inclusive and was a nightmare for the Native Americans or slaves and
> > America is reaping its judgment for this now, but in general women and
> > minorities fared no better in other non-Christian cultures either. War and
> > genocide and religious aggression appear to be common to human nature and
> > not just Christian nations.
> >
> >
> >
> > So when you speak of opportunity below I am curious to what you
> > atttribute as being the source of this opportunity to and whether you are
> > lamenting the lack of this opportunity as some kind of faliure?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > *From:* David Opderbeck [mailto: dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:08 AM
> > *To:* John Walley
> > *Cc:* Clarke Morledge; AmericanScientificAffiliation
> > *Subject:* Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> > evangelical faith??
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, until relatively recently it's only been rich white men who've had
> > the opportunity, education and leisure to do so. Pretty hard to "contribute
> > technology and science to the world" when you're a slave, a peasant, or
> > effectively the property of another gender.
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2007 10:51 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com > wrote:
> >
> > But in fairness, it has been "rich white men" that have contributed the
> > most of technology and science to the world of which we are all benefactors.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] *On
> > Behalf Of *David Opderbeck
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 18, 2007 3:51 PM
> > *To:* Clarke Morledge
> > *Cc:* AmericanScientificAffiliation
> > *Subject:* Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> > evangelical faith??
> >
> >
> >
> > Fascinating. You can find his anti-Catholic book on Google books -- it
> > seems bizarre from our perspective today, though there are still groups out
> > there that spout the same rhetoric. Below are some of his writings on
> > slavery. Both his rabid anti-Catholic conspiracy theorizing and his support
> > for slavery seem consistent with the views held by many American Calvinist
> > evangelicals at the time. The original "Christian America" probably wasn't
> > much fun if you weren't a white male Calvinist.
> >
> > Samuel F. B. Morse (1863).
> >
> > *An Argument on the Ethical Position of Slavery *(NY: Society for the
> >
> > Diffusion of Political Knowledge, no. 12).
> >
> > 1. "Slavery or the servile relation is proved to be one of the
> > indispensable regulators of the social
> >
> > system, divinely ordained for the discipline of the human race in this
> > world, and that it is in perfect
> >
> > harmony . . . with the great declared object of the Savior's mission to
> > earth" (10).
> >
> > 2. "If the servile relation is an essential and indispensable divinely
> > arranged part of the Social System,
> >
> > is not the attempt to blot it out altogether by force in any community,
> > under the plea that it is a sin, an
> >
> > evil, a wrong, or an outrage to humanity, or indeed in any other place,
> > sacrilegious?" (10).
> >
> > 3. "Are there not in this relation [of master to slave], when faithfully
> > carried out according to Divine
> >
> > directions, some of the most beautiful examples of domestic happiness
> > and contentment that this fallen
> >
> > world knows? Protection and judicious guidance and careful provision on
> > the one part; cheerful
> >
> > obedience, affection and confidence on the other" (13).
> >
> > 4. "Christianity has been most successfully propagated among a barbarous
> > race, when they have been
> >
> > enslaved to a Christian race. Slavery to them has been Salvation, and
> > Freedom, ruin" (16).
> >
> > 5. "When the relation of Master & Slave is left to its natural workings
> > under the regulations divinely
> >
> > established, and unobstructed by outside fanatic busybodyism, the
> > result, on the enslaved and on
> >
> > society at large, is salutory and benevolent. When resisted, as it is by
> > the abolitionism of the day, we
> >
> > have only to look around us to see the horrible fruits, in every
> > frightful, and disorganizing, and bloody
> >
> > shape" (17).
> >
> > B. Samuel F. B. Morse (1914).
> >
> > *Letters and Journals *(Boston: Houghton Mifflin).
> >
> > 1. "My creed on the subject of slavery is short. Slavery per se is not
> > sin. It is a social condition
> >
> > ordained from the beginning of the world for the wisest purposes,
> > benevolent and disciplinary, by
> >
> > Divine Wisdom. The mere holding of slaves, therefore, is a condition
> > having per se nothing of moral
> >
> > character in it, any more than the being a parent, or employer, or
> > ruler" (2: 331).
> >
> > 2. "Conscience in this matter has moved some Christians quite as
> > strongly to view Abolitionism as a
> >
> > sin of the deepest dye, as it has other Christian minds to view Slavery
> > as a sin . . . Who is to decide in a
> >
> > conflict of consciences? If the Bible is to be the umpire, as I hold it
> > to be, then it is the Abolitionist that
> >
> > is denounced as worthy of excommunication; it is the Abolitionist from
> > whom we are commanded to
> >
> > withdraw ourselves, while not a syllable of reproof do I find in the
> > sacred volume administered to those
> >
> > who maintain, in the spirit of the gospel, the relation of Masters and
> > Slaves"
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2007 2:27 PM, Clarke Morledge <chmorl@wm.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I recently finished reading David Bodanis' _Electric Universe_.
> > Bodanis
> >
> > gives some biographical information about how Christian faith influenced
> >
> > some of the early electricity scientists/inventors in the 19th century.
> >
> > But one of the disturbing accounts he gives is about Samuel F. B. Morse,
> >
> > the talented painter who patented the telegraph and co-invented the
> > Morse
> >
> > code. Several strikes are made against Morse:
> >
> > 1. He basically stole Joseph Henry's work on the underlying principles
> > of
> >
> > the telegraph and patented it for himself.
> >
> > 2. He ran for mayor of New York on a "nativist" platform, the "Know
> >
> > Nothing" party, protesting against the immigration of non-Protestants to
> >
> > America. The implication is that not only was he anti-Catholic, he was
> >
> > also racist and anti-semitic. Furthermore, he had a peculiar conspiracy
> >
> > theory about how Catholic immigration was a papal/Jesuit plot
> > threatening
> >
> > to undermine American society, and that he developed the telegraph as a
> >
> > means to subvert this threat (Morse's book, "Foreign Conspiracy Against
> >
> > the Liberties of the United States - The Numbers of Brutus").
> >
> > I also did a little more research on Morse and the Wikipeadia article
> >
> > suggests that Morse had more Unitarian leanings than his famous,
> >
> > staunchly-Calvinist preacher father, Jedidiah Morse. Samuel Morse was
> >
> > also staunchly pro-slavery, but it might be difficult to hold that
> > against
> >
> > him since there were so many evangelicals during his time who agreed
> > with
> >
> > him.
> >
> > In a number of evangelical "providentialist" approaches to American
> >
> > history, Morse is upheld as an evangelical role model; e.g. Stephen K.
> >
> > McDowell's _Building Godly Nations_, or on the AIG website:
> >
> > http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v13/i1/morse.asp
> >
> > And even this perhaps surprisingly positive portrait from the Christian
> >
> > History Glimpses that appear in many church Sunday bulletins:
> >
> > http://chi.gospelcom.net/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses/glmps099.shtml
> >
> > But the way Bodanis approaches Morse, holding up Morse as a model
> >
> > Christian is rather ill fitting.
> >
> > So which description is correct here: Morse the thief and conspiracy
> >
> > theorist as Bodanis portrays him, or Morse the humble Christian as the
> >
> > "providentialists" argue --- or perhaps somewhere in between?
> >
> > Clarke Morledge
> >
> > College of William and Mary
> >
> > Information Technology - Network Engineering
> >
> > Jones Hall (Room 18)
> >
> > Williamsburg VA 23187
> >
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> >
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

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Received on Wed Dec 19 09:14:30 2007