RE: [asa] Origins: Francis Collins and ID

Mike said:
"One is that you can't put God's will into a scientific context by
attributing to Him simple human attributes just to make it easier for
you to understand how He could affect His will scientifically."

But didn't Jesus do that all the time in His parables? The kingdom of
God is like a mustard seed... farmer sowing seed... finding a pearl of
great price... woman lost a coin and searched the house for it... etc.
Again, an example or illustration would help to illustrate your point.
What is a specific example of someone doing something that you think
they shouldn't be doing?

...Bernie

________________________________

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of mlucid@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:56 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Origins: Francis Collins and ID

From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>

Mike said:
"You know, it's just so weird to me that some people can't believe in
Creation unless God dumbs Himself down and interferes in His Own Process
in the exact same way that some idiot human would do it if they were
God. "

Mike, from your post, I almost get the idea that you are saying it is
unknowable, so don't bother trying to figure it out. Maybe what would
help is if you give a specific example or illustration... I'm not sure
I'm getting your point.

I'm betting you're not alone in that regard.

I was making two points:

One is that you can't put God's will into a scientific context by
attributing to Him simple human attributes just to make it easier for
you to understand how He could affect His will scientifically.

The second point I was making was that, conversely, we cannot eliminate
the will of God from the functioning of the real world by restricting
God to the parameters of our scientific understanding.

If you would like to examine either of these points I think it would be
easier for me to defend them than the original rant I posted. I feel a
little more composed now.

-Mike (Friend of ASA)

________________________________

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu?> ] On Behalf Of mlucid@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:42 PM
To: pvm.pandas@gmail.com
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Origins: Francis Collins and ID

You know, it's just so weird to me that some people can't believe in
Creation unless God dumbs Himself down and interferes in His Own Process
in the exact same way that some idiot human would do it if they were
God. But, God didn't just set it all in motion and leave, EITHER! God
is immanent in the total, instant to instant animation of every
infinitesimal bit of the unknowably vast sum of Creation. Creation IS
God and IT is ONGOING now and forever, transcending any human ability to
even trivially conceive its scope and purpose no matter how much we
think we might know about it. You think DNA is the engine of evolution?
In a thousand years they'll be talking about evolution in a way that
will make our current understanding of natural selection seem like
Copernican crystal spheres. Bet on it.

God doesn't need to interfere in His own Creation to confirm the primacy
of our faith, NOR did He "set it all in motion" and then vacate in order
to confirm the primacy of our reason. Jesus! I hate to rant, but I
just don't get it. How hard can it be? God is both immanent and
transcendent. What we think we know is extremely valuable but extremely
limited leaving our clear and instinctive faith in the Source of all
Purpose to forever make up the difference. Survival is to reason as
evolution is to God. You can't just work one independent of the other.
You can't think your way to faith any more than you can believe away the
facts on the ground. Get used to it.

The simple answer is gone forever because it never existed. You can't
properly understand what you know without intuiting what you don't.
Doing that takes the elevation of instinct, intuition and faith to the
position of equal partner to reason. Faith is not just about God, it's
about a thousand parameters of the unknown as it infuses every aspect of
human life. It's about taking on the enormous responsibility of finding
out everything you can about what is known and placing that into the
proper context of what is ostensibly true as it lies forever arrayed
beyond that knowledge. Get used to it.

(Sorry again about the rant. I'm having a crushingly frustrating week.)

-Mike (Friend of ASA)

-----Original Message-----
From: PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com>
To: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:02 am
Subject: Re: [asa] Origins: Francis Collins and ID

On Dec 3, 2007 11:25 AM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:

>

> " What do you see as a problem for evolution here?"

>

> The problem is seeing how a mindless nature can create something so
complex

> as an eye. The eye is just one example. As I said, I work at Intel
in CPU

> design, and I see how much work it takes to make an advanced CPU.
There is

Is there any similarity between CPU's and complex systems like the

eye? As I pointed out, despite some people's inability to grasp how

evolution can have resulted in an eye, it seems that science indeed

has shown how intermediates exist.

> no way it could be done without pushing every brain cell that we have.

> However, life itself is so much more complex (the eye, DNA, etc.). So
on

> one hand I see the evidence of evolution in the genome, on the other
hand I

> can't comprehend how nature can do this without an intelligent guiding
hand.

> Is there something unscientific in thinking that God guided evolution?
Is

> the most reasonable conclusion that God guided evolution? Did God
directly

> manipulate DNA as a programmer writes a software program?

Of course, we can always invoke the guiding hand of God but to replace

our ignorance with an appeal to God runs the risk of a gap argument.

Is it necessary that God guided evolution? Is it sufficient to set in

motion evolution? That may mostly be an issue of faith. Personally, I

see nothing wrong with accepting that God set it all in motion a long

time ago. What does it mean for God to 'guide evolution'? How do we

limit God to a mechanism that can be studied by science? Should we?

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Received on Wed Dec 5 13:16:48 2007