All this trying to force the semantics of so sacred a work as the Bible into the rational specifics of our current cosmology is doing a disservice, in my estimate, to its real message. What happens if you wangle yourselves a beautiful new interpretation of Genesis that is one to one concurrent with everything we think we know right down to the big bang and then we find out the same thing we always find out about the largest structure we can see (IT AIN'T THE LARGEST STRUCTURE)
Every time we look hard enough, we find out that what we thought was the largest structure was neither the largest structure nor the only one of it's kind. From a Bayesian perspective, it is nearly inevitable that the Big Bang will turn out to be a little pop (Local Monster Black Hole Goes Bang) in a broad field of little pops that in turn combine to form a bigger structure just like every material object/system we ever examined from Quarks to Galaxy Cluster in all 40 orders of spatial magnitude we have discovered so far. No exceptions.
Every human cosmology we ever devised was in fact refuted in exactly this the same way. What we thought was everything there was to see, turned out time and again to be just one of many of the same class of object forming bigger structures in a yet larger context. The flat earth was one of may objects in a much larger Ptolemaic structure. The round Earth turned out to be one of many smaller structures orbiting a much larger Copernican Sun. The Copernican Soloar System turned out to be many star systems in a much larger galaxy. The Milky Way Galaxy turned out to be one of many galaxies in a much larger expanding Big Bang system. Get some Vegas odds maker to give you the spread and let your grandkids go to college on it, the big bang is not the end of the line.
So after you get your new interpretations of Genesis all hammer into place, you'll just have to start all over again trying to torture the beautiful prose of Genesis that lets us know that God is the beginning and the end of all things as well as you will ever see it written, to fit YET ANOTHER cosmological attempt to describe all of infinite Creation as some tidy new finite model (this time for SURE). It ain't gonna happen. This is the new, open ended Bayesian data profile facing modern humans, which we need to formalize in lieu of constantly thinking we have it all but figured out. Science is not transcendent. Science is a finite set of local relationships couched in an infinite and infinitesimal context the full extent in either direction of which we will never figure out. Humans cannot rationally describe Creation EVER. We can only describe spatially local relationships over a finite span of time, nothing more. That's the best fit the data shows. (www.thegodofreason.com)
You can interpret the Bible just fine for how you should live your life without trying to mangle it into some specific, rational compliance with our constantly changing, eternally provisional, rational world view.
-Mike (Friend of ASA)
-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 2:17 pm
Subject: RE: [asa] Evolution in the Bible
How could there be the spirit of God hovering over the waters before the big
bang ??? There was water before the big bang??? That right there
disqualifies it all, I think.
Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and
darkness was upon
the face of the deep. And the
Spirit of God
moved upon the face of the
waters.
Before the Big Bang our observer saw only void and darkness:
the earth did not exist. The ancient Hebrew was constricted by their
cosmology. The earth was conceived
as a flat disk floating on a subterranean sea, kept stationary by pillars (Jb.
9:6).
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there
was light.
The Big Bang!
…Bernie
From:
asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Randy Isaac
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007
7:42 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: [asa] Evolution in the
Bible
Someone who I know only by the name of George contacted me
by email recently to share his view of concordance between science and the
Bible. He sent me the following narrative, which we briefly discussed and I
gave him my opinon. He is interested in hearing from others and he
approved my sending it to all of you for response. I'll share the thread with
him later for some feedback.
Thank you,
Randy
EVOLUTION IN THE BIBLE
Today there is a big controversy between those who insist
that the Bible means just what it apparently says: the universe and all
that is in it was created by God in
six 24-hour days, and the evolutionist who assert that the universe evolved
over many, many billions of years, and that life on earth was not created at
all but evolved
through a natural process. But, says the former, evolution is just a
theory; a theory not proven and not likely to be. It is not the purpose
of this appendix to refute the creationist as it is impossible to do so.
Evolution as claimed by some evolutionist can't be "proven" almost by
definition, although there is a mounting of evidence of at least some sort of
natural development of the stars and galaxies and of the life-forms here on
earth. Nor is creation and evolution contradictory. Both can occur:
some things being created and others evolving from those created.
It is the purpose of this paper to show that a literal
interpretation of the Hebrew word "yom" in Chapter 1 of Genesis to
mean a 24-hour day is not necessary to
continue to assert the validity of the creation story. Indeed it can be
shown that Genesis 1 is completely compatible with modern cosmology and
evolution theories. This is accomplished with a verse by verse exegesis
of Genesis 1 relating each verse with its corresponding event as depicted from
modern theories of cosmology and evolution.
The story of the creation of the universe and of man as told
in the Bible is quite consistent with modern scientific hypotheses. It
has been said that the first chapters of Genesis are but a rewrite of the
Babylonian myth "Enuma elish". Nothing could be further from
the truth. But this paper is not designed to answer this criticism
directly. Rather it is designed to point out how remarkable is the story
of creation as told in Genesis with modern scientific thought.
The writer(s) of the first chapter of Genesis knew nothing
of evolution. Indeed their cosmology considered a geocentric solar system
as a fact, and that the earth and
the stars was bowl suspended on a sea of water. The Biblical story of
creation utilizes this cosmology throughout its narrative. So how come
its correspondence with modern
evolutionary theories? I don't know. However for the sake of
argument let us assume that the writer of Genesis had a dream in which he was
at the location where the earth was to be, and the development of the universe
was revealed to him. He then attempted write down what he saw in that
dream. However in writing what he saw he is
constrained by the perspective of his current scientific knowledge.
In what follows Scripture is taken from the King James Version (KJV), but
alternate translations from the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) and the New
American Bible (NAB) are compared with the KJV as needed.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and
the earth.
This is a simple statement. God created the
universe as we observe it today. ( The JPS has it , "When God began
to create the heaven and the earth.") There is no
ancient Hebrew word for "universe". Now assume there is an
observer where the earth
is to be.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and
darkness was upon
the face of the deep. And the
Spirit of God moved
upon the face of the
waters.
Before the Big Bang our observer saw only void and darkness:
the earth did not exist. The ancient Hebrew was constricted by their
cosmology. The earth was conceived
as a flat disk floating on a subterranean sea, kept stationary by pillars (Jb.
9:6).
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there
was light.
The Big Bang!
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and
God divided
the light from the darkness.
The stars and galaxies were formed. Our observer noted the
blackness among the light from the stars.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness
he called Night.
And the evening and the
morning were the
first day.
There is no ancient Hebrew word for
"epoch". A Hebrew day began in the evening and lasted
until the next evening. What is being designated here is a complete
day = time period. (JPS has it, "And there was evening and
there was morning, a first day.")
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the
midst of the
waters, and let it divide the
waters from the
waters.
The solar system, or more exactly our galaxy (?), was now
formed. (JPS translates "firmament" into
"expanse". NAB has it, "Let there be a dome in the middle
of the
waters, to separate one body of water from the other.")
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the
waters which were
under the firmament from the
waters which were
above the firmament: and it
was so.
According to the scientific theory of our observer the
universe was an ocean. Now there were two oceans divided by a
"firmament."
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the
evening and the
morning were the second day.
Both JPS and NAB translate "Heaven" as
"sky". Remember our observer is at the location where the earth
is to be. While the earth had yet to be created our observer
noted the sky.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven
be gathered
together unto one place, and let
the dry land
appear: and it was so.
The earth is now created. Initially it was all dry
land - semi-molten actually. It was bombarded by meteorites, but the
effects of this activity have been completely erased by tectonic
activity. The oldest known rocks date from about 3800 million years ago
(Ma).
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the
gathering together
of the waters called he
Seas: and God saw
that it was good.
Now we talk about the earth. An atmosphere came next,
and with it oceans. Modern cosmology assumes that this original
atmosphere to be quite dense, consisting of water, carbon dioxide and monoxide
and other gases expelled by volcanoes. This is called the Archean period
and lasted until about 2500 Ma. Evidence from palaeomagnetism suggest
that the continental masses drifted as a supercontinent though most of
Proterozoic time (2500 Ma-700 Ma).
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass,
the herb yielding
seed, and the fruit tree
yielding fruit
after his kind, whose seed is in
itself, upon the
earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb
yielding seed
after his kind, and the tree
yielding fruit,
whose seed was in itself, after
his kind: and God
saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third
day.
Life must have first originated in an oxygen-free
environment; indeed, oxygen only entered the atmosphere as a result of the
actions of living organisms. The Bible
correctly mentions the creation of plant life next. We are in the
pre-Cambrian period which started with the evolution of marine algae and
perhaps some ediacaran
(soft-bodied) faunas (not mentioned in the Bible as the writer(s) of Genesis
had no experience with them). However it is evident that our observer
lumped all plant life,
including that said to have evolved in the lower cretaceous period. The
intent here is obviously to emphasize the order of creation in very general
terms.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the
firmament of the heaven
to divide the day from
the night; and let
them be for signs, and for
seasons, and for
days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of
the heaven to give
light upon the earth: and it
was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater
light to rule the
day, and the lesser light to
rule the night: he
made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven
to give light upon
the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night,
and to divide the
light from the darkness: and
God saw that it
was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth
day.
Verses 14 through 19 is perhaps the hardest for both
scientist and creationist to reconcile. The moon and the sun and the
stars obviously were created (or evolved)
prior to the existence of plants. But remember that our observer was
earth-bound, and when the plants were created the earth was covered by a thick
atmosphere. The earth-
bound observer noted the dilution of the dense atmosphere which had hid the sun
and the moon. So startling was this event that it is mentioned as a
separate "day" in Genesis. Actually the "day"s of Genesis
are not related the geologic epochs as envisioned by modern science in a
one-for- one basis. Rather they are a rough description of the order of
the creative process. To the earth-bound observer
the sun and moon were "created" when he saw them. Note that the
sun and moon are creatures to aid man, not deities to rule over man.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth
abundantly the
moving creature that hath life,
and fowl that may fly
above the earth in the
open firmament of
heaven.
Genesis correctly puts the creation of sea life prior to the
creation of birds.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living
creature that
moveth, which the waters brought
forth abundantly,
after their kind, and every
winged fowl after
his kind: and God saw that it
was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and
multiply, and fill
the waters in the seas, and
let fowl multiply
in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth
day.
The
Precambrian-Cambrian boundary coincides with a period when there was an
explosive evolution of marine life, but the fifth "day" apparently
takes us through the entire palaeozoic and mezozoic periods. It seems likely
that the oxygen levels in the atmosphere increased very slowly. As the
atmospheric oxygen built up so the protective ozone layer developed to allow
organisms to live in shallower waters, and eventually to live outside of water
entirely. More highly developed photosynthesising organisms led in turn to the
development of animals that could breath oxygen (birds of Genesis 1:21).
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the
living creature
after his kind, cattle, and
creeping thing,
and beast of the earth after
his kind: and it
was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his
kind, and cattle
after their kind, and every
thing that
creepeth upon the earth after his
kind: and God saw
that it was good.
Mammals are next created taking us through the palaeocene,
eocene and oligocene periods.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
after our
likeness: and let them have dominion
over the fish of
the sea, and over the fowl of
the air, and over
the cattle, and over all the
earth, and over
every creeping thing that
creepeth upon the
earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the
image of God
created he him; male and female
created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,
Be fruitful, and
multiply, and replenish the
earth, and subdue
it: and have dominion over
the fish of the
sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over
every living thing that moveth
upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every
herb bearing seed,
which is upon the face of a
all the earth, and
every tree, in the which is
the fruit of a
tree yielding seed; to you it
shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every
fowl of the air,
and to every thing that
creepeth upon the
earth, wherein there is life,
I have given every
green herb for meat: and it
was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and,
behold, it was
very good. And the evening and
the morning were
the sixth day.
And finally man! "Man", the Hebrew
Adam, is a collective noun processing no plural. Mankind is meant, as is
shown by the plural verb and the pronominal object. All
that is said in Chapter 1 is that God created man in God's image
("selem" = exact reproduction, duplicate) and likeness
("demut" = resemblance). Man is said to have
been created as one who is a "copy" of God, yet this statement is
immediately modified. There is a superficial resemblance to this
narrative in the Babylonian "Enuma
elis",
according to which man is partly made from the blood of a god. Here
however a completely transcendent God freely creates man like to himself.
It is in the creation of man that Christians truly part company with some
evolutionists. No matter by what process that man's body came to be he
was created in "the image and likeness
of God, and God is not a physical being. We look to Chapter 2 of Genesis
for a further analysis of this point.
The difference in the divine names of Genesis 1 - 2:4a
(Elohim) and that of Genesis 2:4b - 2:25 (Yahweh) may indeed support the
hypothesis that these two chapters come
from different sources; but they are not two different accounts of the
creation. Rather Chapter 2 is a supplement to the creation story of Chapter 1:
the latter laying out
the order of creation, while the former is concerned with the details
concerning the creation of man. The applicable passage from our viewpoint is:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the
ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the
breath of life;
and man became a living soul.
Physically man was formed as other animals, out of "the
dust of the ground." Then God breathed into man that which make man unique
from all the rest of creation: a
living soul. As evolution only concerns itself with the physical body
this is perfectly consistent with the biblical account. The rest of the
chapter relates the nature of man of man as a social animal and the nature of
woman as processing the same nature as man.
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