Re: [asa]The Barr letter( request for some resources)

Merv,
What does II Tim. 3:16 say in defense of the history in the Bible? Also,
if your view is right, then hares and hyrax chew their cud (Leviticus
11:5, 6; Deuteronomy 14:7). While you represent a popular recent
viewpoint on inerrancy, Paul's claims are much more restricted. The
confessions and catechisms reflect this narrower view.
Dave

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:10:01 -0500 mrb22667@kansas.net writes:
> Quoting "D. F. Siemens, Jr." <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>:
>
> > Merv,
> > When you cite II Tim. 3:16, you do so carelessly. What part of the
> verse
> > gives factual authority to history, to science, to the like?
>
> None -- I'm not sure what you thought I was saying. The verse only
> gives
> authority to Scripture -- with no mention of history, science, etc
> -- nor does
> it deny those other things any authority, it is just silent on
> those. My
> point is that others are careless if they take early parts of
> Genesis as being
> excluded from Paul's reference here.
>
>
> >The folks
> > connected to the Reformation recognized what Scripture teaches,
> that we
> > learn all we need to know for our salvation and our behavior.
> Check the
> > confessions and catechisms.
> > Dave
>
> I'm already in full agreement with this. Though if you think
> certain
> confessions or catechisms give further insight or a needed greater
> context,
> let me know where to read.
>
> --Merv
>
>
>
> >
> > On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:56:47 -0500 mrb22667@kansas.net writes:
> > > Quoting "D. F. Siemens, Jr." <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:42:28 +1200 Don Nield
> > > <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>
> > > > writes:
> > > > > I am returning to this ASA thread after locating my copy of
> > > Barr's
> > > > > book
> > > > > . I cite extracts from Barr's book below, between rows of
> 8's.
> > > > > Barr is clearly of the opinion that both the YECs (as
> > > represented by
> > > > > the
> > > > > AiG people) and the OEC scientific concordists have at the
> > > outset
> > > > > made a
> > > > > category error. They have made a mistake in identifying the
> > > genre of
> > > > >
> > > > > Genesis 1:1-2:4b.
> > > > > The OEC scientific concordists have also violated a basic
> > > > > hermeneutical
> > > > > principle -- that the meaning of a word should be
> ascertained in
> > > its
> > > > >
> > > > > context rather than invoking the full semantic range of the
> > > word.
> > > > >
> > > > > 88888888
> > > > > James Barr, Escaping from Fundamentalism, SCM Press, 1984
> > > > >
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > > p.135. [N]o one in the Bible said, and no one in ancient
> times
> > > in
> > > > > Israel
> > > > > supposed, that God had told, or revealed, or related the
> story
> > > that
> > > > > now
> > > > > stands as the first chapter of the Bible. It simply does not
> say
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > Bible that the material in Gen. 1., of any of the narratives
> of
> > > > > creation, is there because it was spoken or revealed by God.
>
> > > This
> > > > > was
> > > > > “Wisdom”, the product of men of faith who had observed the
> world
> > >
> > > > > with
> > > > > such means as they had and integrated into the story of
> creation
> > >
> > > > > their
> > > > > balanced judgment on numerous theological problems which had
>
> > > best
> > > > > the
> > > > > religion of Israel. By placing this account at the very
> start of
> > > the
> > > > >
> > > > > Bible they gave deservedly high importance to it. But they
> did
> > > not
> > > > > regard it as direct divine revelation and nowhere did they
> say
> > > so.
> > > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > I fear he has jumped to a conclusion too quickly. How often in
> the
> > > Wisdom
> > > > books has "God said" been stated? Does he document his claim
> that
> > > this
> > > > comes from the Wisdom tradition? I find the phrase noted of
> > > messages to
> > > > patriarchs and prophets, from Genesis through Malachi. The
> unusual
> > > > evening-morning sequence in Genesis 1 (and, if my memory
> serves,
> > > only one
> > > > other place in the Hebrew scriptures) is compatible with the
> > > giving of
> > > > visions, hence of its being revelation. So I don't think the
> > > problem is
> > > > solved by Barr's claim. Beyond its apologetic purpose, there
> seem
> > > to be
> > > > complications of interpretation.
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > >
> > > complication -- yes, not to mention that Jesus himself refers
> back
> > > to the
> > > creation account (Mark 10:6) and uses it as authoritative to
> correct
> > > the
> > > Pharisees.
> > >
> > > And furthermore ... while scholars may not accept this, most
> YECs
> > > think of God
> > > as not only directly inspiring the Scriptures, but also
> overseeing
> > > their
> > > compilation and the process of giving us our current canon. So
> when
> > > they read
> > > in II Tim. 3:16 that "All Scripture is inspired..." they freely
>
> > > take that to
> > > include Gen 1:1 to Rev. 22:21 even if the current canon as we
> know
> > > it didn't yet
> > > exist (and indeed wasn't even completely written yet.) But
> since
> > > God is
> > > overseeing it, temporal problems aren't problems at all.
> Scholars
> > > sneer. The
> > > faithful take it as a matter of faith -- and are not impressed
> by
> > > the
> > > scholarship assumptions. The chasm widens.
> > >
> > > Having said that, though, Barr's point about correcting theology
> by
> > > using
> > > theology (as early church fathers would have done prior to any
> > > geological
> > > motivations) is well taken. And the framework theory ought to
> be
> > > supported in
> > > exactly that way if it is to reach those not inclined.
> > >
> > > --Merv
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> > >
> > >
> >
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> >
>
>
>
>

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Received on Wed Jun 20 16:02:50 2007