Re: [asa] Information and knowledge

*If you are thinking ontologically, whatever that is supposed to mean, then
what would you say was the state of affairs on this earth between
4.5billion and
3.5 billion years ago when there was no organic life, let alone sentient
life? Was there information on this earth?
*
Ontology, I'm sure you know, is the study of what exists. Materialists say
only matter and energy ultimately exists. Some forms of ID, I'm sure you
also know, challenge materialism at this ontological level by suggesting
that information exists apart from energy and matter. If information exists
apart from energy and matter, materialism cannot be true. Moreover, if
information is always produced by intelligence, then there must be a
designer of the universe, because information as an ontological entity could
not exist otherwise. This is one reason information theory is so central to
the strong ID program. It is also one reason why the strong ID program has
some affinities with fields such as artificial intelligence and SETI, both
of which implicitly question materialism by suggesting that information (or
disembodied intelligence) might have some kind of existence apart from
matter.

When you say "there is no information without a physical medium," that is an
ontological assertion. You are asserting that information has no
independent existence apart from matter and energy. If you don't know what
"thinking ontologically" is "supposed to mean," you shouldn't be making such
assertions, or at least you should come to realize that you are thinking
about ontology and cease sniping at the (proper) choice of words (with, of
course, the attendant suggestion that the interlocutor using such a fancy
word as "ontology" doesn't really know what it means either).

The assertion that "there is no information without a physical medium" is
not a scientific one; it is philosophical and theological. It is not a
scientific statement because it asserts something non-falsifiable about a
putative non-physical realm. Moreover, at both the theological and
scientific levels, the assertion fails.

At the theological level, the assertion that "there is no information
without a physical medium" is false. The Triune God is spiritual, not
physical, but each person of the Trinity is capable of communicating (in
theological terms, experiencing perfect fellowship) with the other.
Moreover, angels and demons are spiritual, not material, and are capable of
communicating with each other and with God. Finally, scripture suggests
that human beings are partly spiritual and that God sometimes communicates
with human beings at a spiritual level (see Romans 8:16: "his spirit
testifies with our spirit that we are God's children").

At the philosophical level, the statement "there is no information without a
physical medium" is justifiable only if materialism is true. There are any
number of excellent philosophical grounds for rejecting materialsm, not the
least of which is that materialsm is incoherent because of the reality of
non-material intentionality and agency.

Therefore, your understanding of information, which is an understanding of
ontology and not of science, appears to be fundamentally flawed both
theologically and philosophically. Landauer is dead wrong.

As to the question whether there was "information on this earth ... when
there was no organic life, let alone sentient life," I think you need to go
back to the doctrine of creation. The metaphor of the "spirit of God
hovering over the waters" (Gen. 1:2) poetically depicts God's continuous
presence in and care over the creation. I would reject the notion that
there ever was no "sentient life," from the beginning of creation and before
then through eternity, unless God somehow lacked sentience and him/itself is
only an emergent property, as some panentheists suggest. There never was,
in all of natural history or eternity past, a time when matter and energy
were all that existed. God always was.

Given all this, you will suggest I'm sounding like an ID'er. I suppose I
agree with the ID folks to the extent the objection to their program is
based on the false notion that "there is no information without a physical
medium." That is a notion drawn from materialism and it is not compatible
with a Triune God who is spirit.

However, the direction I want to pursue is that there is no information
without *community*. Information is not an ontologically separate entity,
but not because information depends on matter. Rather, information depends
on *relationships*. There is information apart from matter because God
exists in the relationship of the Trinity. However, the information in
God's "mind" does not exist apart from God's Triune fellowship.

In creating the material universe, God did not call into existence matter,
energy, and *information. *Rather, He created a material universe that is
rooted in and reflects His character as a *relational* being. So, we can say
that there is no "information" apart from *relationships*. This
distinguishes the direction I'm pursuing rather sharply from the strong ID
program, which views information as a scientifically detectable
thing-in-itself. In my view, to recognize the true relational nature of
information requires a proper understanding of the relationships involved.
This ultimately is a matter of religious presuppositions, not of scientific
investigation.

And that, in a nutshell, is what I mean by "thinking ontologically" about
information.

On 4/12/07, Randy Isaac <randyisaac@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> I have no idea what you mean by "ontologically a separate,
> medium-independent property."
>
> Let's go back to Landauer:
>
> Information is physical. There is no information without a physical
> medium.
> Information is independent of its physical embodiment. That doesn't mean
> it exists independent of it, it means it doesn't matter which physical
> embodiment is used. For example, a frequently used channel is optical
> transmission. The photons that transmit the information can embody the
> information in several ways. One common way is polarization states. It can
> be circularly polarized or not. Or it can be vertical vs horizontal
> polarization. Those are two very different photon states but the information
> is independent of which one is used.
>
> If you are thinking ontologically, whatever that is supposed to mean, then
> what would you say was the state of affairs on this earth between 4.5billion and
> 3.5 billion years ago when there was no organic life, let alone sentient
> life? Was there information on this earth?
>
> Randy
>
>
> Dave wrote:
>
>
> My objection is that information theory *in general* is taken too far when
> it leads to the view that information is truly ontologically a separate,
> medium-independent property.
>
>
>

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Received on Thu Apr 12 23:21:18 2007