Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

Dick -

Where we have significant differences is not about facts recorded in secular histories but whether the Genesis texts can & should be read as accounts of (inter alia) those facts. You think they can & should & I think they can't & shouldn't - at least without a great deal of forcing.

& let me repeat: Your "burning house" metaphor prompted me to make my position clear. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I was becoming a concordist & suddenly backed away from that position when I realized its implications.

I think that the stories of the flood in Genesis make use of memories of actual Mesopotamian floods. Whether or not they correlate closely enough with any particular Mesopotamian deluge to justify calling it THE biblical flood is something I'm willing to leave open, though I have no problem with thinking that this was the case.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Dick Fischer
  To: ASA
  Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 9:58 AM
  Subject: RE: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

  Sorry George, I just gave you some of the relevant historical facts. Not enough to change your mind but hopefully enough to make you think about it a little. We write for a broader audience and others read what we post and I know these arguments make perfectly logical good sense and may help others resolve difficulties with their method of apology. Obviously you feel at home with what you believe, and even though it won't stand up to reason, neither will any of the other presently accepted methods. I offer a reasonable approach and back it up with the kind of verifiable data and evidence necessary to substantiate it. No one else has done that.

  I asked you to offer a time and place for Adam and Noah which you declined to do for good reason. Simply there is no time and place for them to live within their historical context sketched out in Genesis where they could be ancestral to all mankind. Full stop. You know it and I know it.

  You are absolutely correct in stating there was no global flood historically. There appears to have been a regional or local flood in southern Mesopotamia. My point, and others have argued it too, is that the 2900 BC flood is THE flood in Genesis 6-8. I'm sure many New Yorkers think of the tragic event that occurred in their city when you say "911." Someone in Kansas may think of 911 as an emergency telephone number. The flood was a big deal in the locality.

  Dick Fischer

  Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association

  Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History

  www.genesisproclaimed.org

  -----Original Message-----
  From: George Murphy [mailto:gmurphy@raex.com]
  Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:34 PM
  To: Dick Fischer; ASA
  Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

  Dick -

  Your last comment about me supposedly running back into a burning building indicates that you have badly misunderstood me. I have been trying to be fairly irenic in exploring your claims but I think that they are wrong. I think that the biblical pictures of Adam and Eve make theological statements about the first of all human beings, not just the ancestors of a part of the present human race. "All" doesn't always have to mean literally "all" but it sometimes does, & I think that in context it's highly tendentious to read "all" in the relevant places in Genesis as if it means just "aome." I think it very unlikely that the present human race descended from a single couple. I won't go into detail arguing for those views - you know about my recent PSCF article. By discussing your views I have not meant to imply that my own have changed and apologize if I have not said "assume for the sake of argument" enough.

  While there was no global flood historically, what is presented in Gen.6-8 is clearly a picture of a catastrophe that wipes out the whole human race except for Noah & in fact the whole world. To note just one point, the way in which II Peter 3:5-7 uses the story of the flood to argue for the possibility of the destruction of "the present heavens and earth" makes no sense if the writer of II Peter did not think of the flood as affecting the whole world.

  Shalom
  George
  http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Dick Fischer

    To: ASA

    Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:59 AM

    Subject: RE: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

    Hi George:

    God provided for Adam. In turn, Adam had an obligation. To me that's a covenant relationship. Today, we have a gorgeous day here in greater Washington. All Washingtonians receive God's blessing equally as did Noah's sons. Whether Ham and Japheth enjoyed a covenant relationship as to salvation is an open question. I certainly don't pretend to know, though I think not. The agreement from God's part was not to bring another devastating flood. And that is true to this day in the areas that they currently reside. Note the devastating tsunami that struck Asia, for example, was not in an area occupied by Noah's kin. Which further exemplifies my point.

    When Shem's line (or at least some of it) resided in Babylon along with Ham's line including Nimrod, who had a covenant relationship with God? If you know I'll abide by your answer because I don't. However, I'll agree that at least at the time of Noah, God did establish a covenant with Noah's entire family. Salvation history working backward from Christ seems to eliminate the branches, though to whom God grants salvation is entirely up to him.

    As to this part:

>>This doesn't invlidate your basic argument about the historicity of Adam but it does mean that it's wrong to suggest that the stories about Adam are just the family history of Israel. They belong equally to the people of Tarshish in Spain, the Ionians, &c - & given what I said earlier, to the Aztecs & in fact everyone<<

    I feel like you just ran back into a burning building. The historicity of Adam and Noah precludes the Aztecs unless you wish to establish a point in time as does Hugh Ross when it would be possible. Do you have such a point? C'mon George, climb down out of your ivory tower and take a stand. Don't reach for the waffle iron. You want Adam and Noah to be ancestral to all mankind, so Adam and Noah, when and where? And don't ask us to go read something. Just cough it up.

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Received on Thu Mar 29 13:33:15 2007