RE: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

Hi Dave, you wrote:

What still bothers me more is that if the findings of population
genetics are solid -- something I'm not sure is necessarily so given the
relative dearth of data and the newness of the field -- whatever the
flood was, it can't have been anthropologically universal. That's why I
started a related thread a week or so ago on how to take the Bible's
implication that the flood destroyed all human life.

If an abundance of animal life around the globe was excluded from the
flood, something we can verify easily, then a consistent reading of the
text also excludes mankind. Linking animals and man in the Genesis text
requires a mutual interpretation. In ignorance, we might think all
animals and all men perished in the flood. In light of circumstances as
we know them, we can say that some animals and some men perished in the
flood. It would be entirely inconsistent with Scripture to assert that
only some animals died in the flood, but all men perished.

Just as all 206 bones were likely not out of joint when the psalmist
declared, "all my bones are out of joint," so too when all men perish,
it is all the men who perished who perished.

Dick Fischer

Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association

Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History

 <http://www.genesisproclaimed.org> www.genesisproclaimed.org

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David Opderbeck
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:29 PM
To: George Murphy
Cc: Charles Carrigan; asa@calvin.edu; dickfischer@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

So yes, he is "the father of many nations" biologically.
 

But not exclusively. Abraham is not the only person who was alive at
the time of Abraham to whom every person in these nations could trace
their ancestry. It would seem to me absurd in the extreme to claim that
no contemporary of Abraham contributed any genetic material to any of
those nations. IOW, there is no "monogenism" implied with respect to
Abraham being the father of many nations. Moreover, undoubtedly a few
generations away from Abraham there would have been people who were part
of those nations who were not in any direct line of descent from
Abraham. Abraham would have been more like a distant cousin. (I'm
still not convinced that even this is necessary. The phrase could be
idiomatic, as in "Henry Ford is the father of a great industry" -- not
meaning Ford was the only person in his time trying to make
automobiles).

There is no serious scientific problem, it seems to me, with Eve being
the "mother of all the living" in this same way, assuming she lived at
or around or shortly after mitochondrial Eve's migration out of Africa.
The problem arises if Eve has to be the only person from whom everyone
later descended, because then the diversity in some human gene lines
(notably the MHC) seems impossible to explain.

This is why I continue to think a more fruitful approach, other than a
literary one, must be to think of a phrase like "mother of all the
living" as an ordinary geneological reference, or maybe also an
idiomatic phrase (interesting to note that Adam said this about Eve, not
that it is said of her directly by God), and not a genetic reference.

Why are so many OEC folks willing to take the seemingly universal
references to the geographic scope of the flood in a more limited sense,
but not to do so with the related references to its anthropological
scope? It would seem to me that even a modest application of the
principle of accomodation could suggest that the Biblical narrative
describes a real event in universal terms that were familiar to the
original audience, in part from Babylonian literary sources, but that
those references simply don't actually address people living far from
where that event happened. Why is anthropological universality a sacred
cow when geographic universality isn't?

 other point I made is really more devastating to Dick's claim: The
biblical ascribes the descent of many other people besides Israel to
Adam.
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Opderbeck
> To: Charles Carrigan
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu ; dickfischer@verizon.net
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?
>
>
> Why does Eve being the "mother of all the living" have to mean
something biological? If Abraham was the "father of many nations" (Gen.
17:4), can everyone in all of those nations trace their biological
ancestry directly back exclusively to Abraham?
>
>
> On 3/21/07, Charles Carrigan <CCarriga@olivet.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > So "Mother of All the Living" really only meant "Mother of All of Us
Israelites and a Few Offshoots Way Back When" ???
> >
> >
> >
> > >>> "Dick Fischer" <dickfischer@verizon.net> 3/21/2007 11:18 AM >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Eve was the mother, as Adam was the father of the Israelites for
whom Genesis was written and to whom it was directed. We Christians are
free to read their mail so to speak, but it was not written initially
for us. It is this tendency we have to read ourselves into Jewish
history that continues to get us into hermeneutical holes. As far back
as I can go is one great grandfather named Pfizer (changed to "Fisher"
at Ellis Island) who was a captain in the Prussian Army, or so I've been
told. Who his wife was I have no idea. But the Israelites had the
benefit of genealogical records that reached all the way back to their
earliest ancestor - Adam.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dick Fischer
> >
> > Dick Fischer , Genesis Proclaimed Association
> >
> > Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
> >
> > www.genesisproclaimed.org
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
On Behalf Of George Murphy
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:15 PM
> > To: Bill Hamilton; asa@calvin.edu
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > How was Adam's wife "the mother of all living" ( Gen.3:20) if Adam
wasn't the father of all living?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Shalom
> > George
> > http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From: Bill Hamilton
> >
> >
> > To: Gregory Arago ; asa@calvin.edu
> >
> >
> > Cc: Glenn Morton
> >
> >
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:22 PM
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The ASA statement of faith references the historic Christian creeds,
which don't, as far as I know, explicitly require a belief in Adam and
Eve. So strictly speaking, I suppose you could be an ASA member without
believing in Adam and Eve. Having said that, I will state that _I_
believe that there were specific persons Adam and Eve. In spite of the
objections raised by Glenn, I like Dick Fischer's view that Adam lived
in Mesopotamia about 7000 years ago. For reference, the objections
raised by Glenn include
> >
> > 1. Under Dick's scenario we are not all descended from Adam. Glenn
sees that view as an excuse for racism. I don't, because of the many
laws, commandments etc. given throughout Scripture detailing how we are
to treat our fellow human beings
> >
> > 2. Under Dick's scenario it's difficult to understand how a flood
approaching the description of Genesis could have occurred (in southern
Mesopotamia). I admit this is a difficulty, but that doesn't justify
throwing out Dick's scenario
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill Hamilton
> > William E. Hamilton, Jr., Ph.D.
> > 248.652.4148 (home) 248.821.8156 (mobile)
> > "...If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom 8:31
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Gregory Arago < gregoryarago@yahoo.ca>
> > To: asa@calvin.edu
> > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 7:49:07 AM
> > Subject: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?
> >
> >
> > It is well known that ASA once issued an unambiguous statement: 'We
believe in creation!' Would ASA be willing to follow that important,
courageous clarification up with a further statement: 'We believe in
Adam and Eve!' ? This is one of my main questions for all theistic
evolutionists (TE's).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > G. Arago
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________

> >
> > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
> > always stay connected to friends.
>
>

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Received on Wed Mar 21 22:08:30 2007