Re: [asa] Re: [ASA] Mandatory HPV vaccination

*I still think that making this an issue where mandating this vaccine will
somehow interfere with the abstinence message, or will be an incentive to
engage in risky behaviors is flawed.*

You may be right, but the question is whether that judgment should be made
in the first instance by the state or by parents. I'm uncomfortable leaving
the default judgment to the state in this instance.

On 2/8/07, drsyme@cablespeed.com <drsyme@cablespeed.com> wrote:
>
> But we are just talking about giving the kids three shots,
> not interceding in the ways that parents raise them. I
> still think that making this an issue where mandating this
> vaccine will somehow interfere with the abstinence
> message, or will be an incentive to engage in risky
> behaviors is flawed.
>
> Like I said Hepatitis B is mandatory, and it is
> transmitted by sexual contact and IV drug use for the most
> part, (although not as exclusively so as HPV) and kills
> 1/3 of the people that cervical cancer does.
>
>
>
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:58:01 -0500
> "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@gmail.com> wrote:
> > *What did you think of the interview?*
> >
> > He started off by saying: *"The parents are the
> >decision-makers."* Well --
> > not really. The state is the default decision maker.
> > Families must accept
> > the default decision unless they opt out. The entire
> >regulatory theory
> > behind soft paternalism is that people tend to accept
> >default decisions and
> > don't opt out even if they don't really agree with the
> >default decision.
> > So, I think the Governor's statement in this interview
> >that the parents are
> > the decision makers is spin.
> >
> > Now, it might be good in this instance for the state to
> >be the default
> > decision maker. It *is* good, I think, that the state
> >is the default
> > decision maker for many other mandatory vaccines kids
> >need before entering
> > public school, particularly for diseases that are
> >transmitted through
> > ordinary social contact. But let's be honest about what
> >the state is doing.
> >
> > Re: Jack's comments about the public health issue: I
> >think everyone should
> > agree that it would be good to eradicate this cancer.
> > But concern about the
> > state's intrusion into the sphere of the family
> >concerning a sensitive issue
> > relating to sexuality has to be included in the mix as
> >well. There are many
> > public health issues that theoretically could be solved
> >if the state were to
> > take over the care of children born to parents who don't
> >have special
> > expertise in health, psychology, etc. Heck, I'm sure
> >there are experts who
> > would disagree with some things I do in raising my own
> >kids. Heaven forbid
> > that I'd ever have to go on that Supernanny TV show!
> > There's a need for
> > balance between the wild west and the brave new world.
> >
> > On 2/7/07, SKrogh <panterragroup@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I gathered from the interview that it would be very
> >>simple to opt out. I
> > guess we can speculate about such things but even poor
> >people can get Tax
> > forms without having to have a computer. And as much
> >scrutiny that would be
> > on this, I doubt that it would be hidden. I am not
> >surprised you could not
> > find information readily available on opt out forms, it
> >is pretty new, but I
> > am sure they will be eventually, if that is indeed what
> >would be needed.
> > Just as I am sure that hard copies will be available at
> >various sources,
> > accessible to poor people. What did you think of the
> >interview?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> =========================================
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> >>[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
> > Behalf Of David Opderbeck
> >>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:03 AM
> >> To: SKrogh
> >> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> >> Subject: Re: [asa] Re: [ASA] Mandatory HPV vaccination
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Is there a cost that would be prohibitive or would it be
> >>something like a
> > nominal filing fee.
> >>
> >> "Cost" in this sense doesn't necessarily mean a monetary
> >>fee. It means
> > the time and effort required to find the information
> >necessary to opt out
> > properly. It also means the possible costs of potential
> >challenges to an
> > exercised opt-out.
> >>
> >> For example, I tried Googling for the information about
> >>what forms would
> > be needed in Texas and how to find them, and ten minutes
> >later, I still
> > haven't found them; apparently they don't yet exist. I
> >see in the
> > Governor's Order (
> > http://www.governor.state.tx.us/divisions/press/exorders/rp65
> >) that the
> > relevant agency is supposed to make the opt out forms
> >available online, but
> > apparently that hasn't happened yet, and who knows
> >whether or when it will
> > happen. Even then, it's unclear whether online opt-out
> >forms will help poor
> > families that lack reliable internet access.
> >>
> >> It's also not entirely clear what the "conscientious
> >>objection" affidavit
> > will entail. It's not a simple opt-out for any reason;
> >it requires a
> > statement under oath that the objector has a specific
> >religious or moral
> > reason for opting out. A person who wishes to opt-out
> >might be concerned
> > that his or her reason for opting out could be
> >challenged in a judicial or
> > administrative proceeding.
> >>
> >> Of course, a determined person with enough resources
> >>likely will figure
> > out how to opt out of this particular program. The
> >broader question for
> > soft paternalism generally is the aggregation of opt-out
> >costs if such
> > programs are adopted for a wider range of health and
> >welfare questions. As
> > Cass Sunstein noted on the blog post I linked, "it might
> >be worth thinking
> > about how the basic approach [of soft paternalism] can
> >be applied to such
> > diverse problems as savings, prescription drug plans,
> >social security
> > reform, obesity, school choice, preparation for natural
> >disasters, and
> > safety on the highways."
> >>
> >> Imagine if there were twenty or thirty different
> >>paternalistic regulations
> > to track and possibly opt out of. It seems to me that
> >most people likely
> > would just give up and accept the regulation. That may
> >be ok from a policy
> > perspective (or it may not), but I think the
> >implications need to be
> > considered and that it isn't enough just to cite the
> >opt-out right for a
> > given regulation.
> >>
> >> On 2/7/07, SKrogh <panterragroup@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > That's fine. Is that the case in this instance? No
> >>labor or costs of
> > opting out were discussed. Is there a cost that would be
> >prohibitive or
> > would it be something like a nominal filing fee. The
> >entire interview with
> > Perry is now on the web.
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> http://www.wbap.com/Article.asp?id=347089&spid=6051=========================================
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> >>[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
> > Behalf Of David Opderbeck
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 9:39 AM
> >> > To: SKrogh
> >> >
> >> > Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> >> > Subject: Re: [asa] Re: [ASA] Mandatory HPV vaccination
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Right, but the presence of an opt-out right can be a
> >>little misleading,
> > in that it involves some effort and cost to opt out,
> >such that many will not
> > do so. This kind of regulation has been called
> >"libertarian paternalism,"
> > and it has generated an interesting debate the the
> >behavioral law and
> > economics literature. See, e.g., here:
> > http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=615562
> >(for a negative
> > view) and here:
> > http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2007/01/libertarian_pat.html
> >for a
> > positive one.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 2/7/07, SKrogh <panterragroup@mindspring.com>
> >>wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > It's not mandatory since you can opt out. Gov Perry
> >> explained while
> > being interviewed at this time on WBAP in Dallas. So it
> >is not really
> > mandatory.
> >> > > =========================================
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> >>[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On Behalf Of Jack
> >> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 6:07 AM
> >> > > To: SteamDoc@aol.com; asa@calvin.edu
> >> > > Subject: Re: [asa] Re: [ASA] Mandatory HPV
> >>vaccination
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > The vaccine costs $120 each for three injections
> >>over 6 months. Merck
> > is in the position to make millions of dollars a year if
> >all states mandate
> > vaccinations. Various medical societies are
> >recommending the vaccine, but
> > not mandating it.
> >> > >
> >> > > So then Perry, a conservative Christian, who would
> >>seem to be someone
> > opposed to mandating it, passes an excutive order to
> >make it mandatory. It
> > just so happens that his former chief of staff is now
> >the lobbyist for
> > Merck. Make of that whatever you will.
> >> > >
> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > From: SteamDoc@aol.com
> >> > > To: asa@calvin.edu
> >> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:44 PM
> >> > > Subject: [asa] Re: [ASA] Mandatory HPV vaccination
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > David Opderbeck wrote:
> >> > > > I think the problem is the mandatory nature of
> >>this executive order.
> >
> >> > > > Mandatory vaccinations for schoolchildren are
> >>appropriate for
> > communicable
> >> > > > diseases that are transmitted by ordinary social
> >>contact. It seems
> > very
> >> > > > different to me to require that kids be vaccinated
> >>against an STD.
> > It does
> >> > > > seem like the kind of thing families should decide
> >>for themselves. I
> > could
> >> > > > see maybe making state funding available for any
> >>family that chooses
> > the
> >> > > > vaccine.
> >> > >
> >> > > Except it isn't mandatory. In Texas (and I think in
> >>all the other
> > states where this is coming up), families can "opt out"
> >if they want.
> >> > >
> >> > > A legitimate question that some have raised is the
> >>cost-benefit
> > analysis. The vaccine is pretty expensive (a few
> >hundred dollars as I
> > recall). The cancer prevented, while certainly tragic,
> >is not extremely
> > common. So society is spending hundreds of thousands,
> >or maybe millions, of
> > dollars for each cancer prevented. What are the
> >opportunity costs for that
> > expense? If insurance is required to cover it, how much
> >will premiums go up
> > and how many people will go uninsured as a result?
> >> > > I'm not advocating any specific answer to these
> >>questions, but I think
> > they need to be asked in such a situation.
> >> > > And one could point out that they are already making
> >>such a
> > calculation to some extent by not requiring the
> >vaccination for boys,
> > although that would also prevent some cancers (albeit a
> >much smaller
> > number).
> >> > >
> >> > > The other legitimate question that people have
> >>raised is the
> > active role of the company that owns the vaccine in
> >lobbying for states to
> > pass such laws.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > Dr. Allan H. Harvey, Boulder, Colorado |
> >>SteamDoc@aol.com
> >> > > "Any opinions expressed here are mine, and should
> >>not be
> >> > > attributed to my employer, my wife, or my cat"
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > David W. Opderbeck
> >> > Web: http://www.davidopderbeck.com
> >> > Blog:
> >> http://www.davidopderbeck.com/throughaglass.html
> >> > MySpace (Music): http://www.myspace.com/davidbecke
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> David W. Opderbeck
> >> Web: http://www.davidopderbeck.com
> >> Blog: http://www.davidopderbeck.com/throughaglass.html
> >> MySpace (Music): http://www.myspace.com/davidbecke
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David W. Opderbeck
> > Web: http://www.davidopderbeck.com
> > Blog: http://www.davidopderbeck.com/throughaglass.html
> > MySpace (Music): http://www.myspace.com/davidbecke
>
>

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Web:  http://www.davidopderbeck.com
Blog:  http://www.davidopderbeck.com/throughaglass.html
MySpace (Music):  http://www.myspace.com/davidbecke
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