RE: [asa] Moral law - Francis Collins

I agree totally that the Christian faith is 100% on the side of the individual versus society. "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?" Luke 15:4.

Surely, evolution deals always with the group rather than individual survival. Hence, I do not understand those who attempt to derive something like the Christian faith from evolutionary theory. In fact, the Christian faith has all to do with a particular historical event, viz. the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ, rather than the history of life on earth or throughout the universe.

Moorad

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From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Don Perrett
Sent: Tue 1/2/2007 11:25 AM
To: ASA Discussions
Subject: RE: [asa] Moral law - Francis Collins

Dick's examples may not seem to be the same to some. One is said to be
conforming to natural laws and the other to man-made laws. While there are
some man-made laws which have little to do with natural laws, most are man's
feeble attempt at applying natural laws. Nature dictates survival. Most
laws are intended to ensure that survival of the group at best or survival
of the leader at worst. Either way it is man's forcing of what he takes to
be for his own survival. This is about as natural as it comes. If we
follow nature, what will it get us. Let's see.

Animals live and fight for survival of themselves first, offspring second,
then their group. It is purely and solely survival of the fittest. This is
exactly what is preached by evolutionism. Selective breeding dominates.
Some less able offspring will be allowed to starve or sometimes willfully
killed in order to ensure the survival of the stronger offspring. Sick
animals will be cared for when possible, but will be left behind if it
threatens the well being of the others. Animals can suffer from depression,
anxiety, anger, aggression, fear, etc. Animals have emotions and are at the
total mercy of them. They have no choice to make. They either live
according to their instinct or they risk death, in some cases, either
themselves, their offspring, or their group. Animals are even easily
addicted.

I'm not saying that there isn't some sense of "altruism" in nature, I'm
saying that altruism is based upon the idea of group survival not goodwill.

If one examines the Bible, you will find things that appear to be just that.
Rich F. has repeatedly quoted the OT with reference to eugenics, etc. But
that's the OT. If that is what it is to be Christian. Look closer and you
will also see sacrifice. What animal will willfully sacrifice itself and
forgive those that seek it's death? It has no ability to do so. It lives
instinctively and will defend itself, even at the expense of others. Can we
not see our own natural animal behaviour in the ideas of group social
orders? Can we not see our animal selves in the wars we fight, or in the
hording of resources?

More basically, are we supposed to say "I'm the best" and think only of
one's self? And is that any different than creating a group and then saying
"Our group is best"? Is that any different than having a single world group
that says "We are best"? Letting go of one's self can only be achieved by
one's self. One must stand alone before God and have a personal
relationship and accountability. One cannot go unto God as a group. This
is why individual rights to free choice and free will must override the
groups. Not because a need for survival, like the animals, but because
God's will is that our relationship with him be personal and accountable.

Alpha and Beta males exists throughout the animal kingdom. All animal
groups have leaders. The question is are humans supposed to have them? I
do not believe so. The only Alpha is God. Therefore we are all Betas.
Equally so, as we stand alone before our Alpha God. We cannot be Alphas
because we are not gods. We are not animals either however and should not
act as such. We are giving a place squarely between the animal and natural
world, and God and his kingdom. When will we stop looking to the animal
world for guidance. "Let's do like the animals because they are
altruistic". Yeah right. Let's not and say we did. Act like a human and
not like an animal. Praise not yourself so that you may praise God. If the
whole of creation was made perfect and good then that seems enough for some.
So therefore acting according to "nature" or what we perceive as natural
must be ok. Well can anyone tell me which group of animals should we be
acting like? Perhaps other primates since that is our nearest relatives.
Even better, someone on the group once quoted a website that used bats as an
example. I don't have wings. Point is the human group is supposed to act
like humans. Now what does that constitute? Well I imagine that we as a
group turned our backs on God and have therefore lost our sense of purpose
and what our rights and wrongs are long ago. That is what the Bible is
about. That is what Dick was trying to say. It's not that there aren't
those that have the HUMAN sense of "The Law" but that for those without it
written on their hearts, the Bible is there to re-write it upon them. So
any of those who wish to ignore the Bible and just live according to nature
may do so, but I would pack for hot weather.\

Don Perrett

Don P

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Received on Tue Jan 2 12:54:42 2007