Fwd: [asa] Random and design

 *What is more Agape like? A Christian who is encouraged by the
Scriptures to follow the rules knowing the rewards at the end or
someone (Christian or non-Christian) who freely gives without no
expectations at all of any returns? *

This is an atheist's trope which reflects a very poor understanding of the
Christian's motivation. It is true that living faithful to our calling as
Christians is tied to blessing, particularly eschatological blessing. But
this should not be taken to mean that the mature Christian's motivation for
faithfulness is primarily some kind of crude, selfish Pavlovian thing. Our
motivation ultimately is one of thanksgiving to God who redeemed us in
Christ, and our reward ultimately is a communal one of sharing together in
the blessings of the Kingdom of God. Further, our impetus isn't really from
our own inherent nature, but rather is from the Holy Spirit who dwells
within us and transforms us.

Go back and read Romans 12-15 (particularly chapters 14-15 on bearing the
weak brother), the book of Galations, Ephesians 4-5, etc. If you steep
yourself in these texts, meditate and pray over them, and the question you
ask above will seem incoherent.

*Perhaps we have reached a stage where organized religion has served
its purpose and we are returning to a personal relationship with God? Just
a thought.*
**
A twisted thought. The Age of Aquarius through evolution? Sounds fishy to
me. The "organized religion" and "personal relationship" lingo here I
suppose is intended to appeal to fundamentalist evangelical types. A
thoroughgoing evangelicalism, however, recognizes that no "personal
realtionship" with God can flourish outside the fellowship of the Church.
Given that Christ is the head of the Church (Eph. 5:23), I'd also suggest
that this sounds heretical and blasphemous.

**

On 11/28/06, Pim van Meurs <pimvanmeurs@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is it not remarkable that evolution brought us to the stage of love
> thy neighbor and reciprocal altruism of the Bible allowing us to take
> the next step to agape?
> It seems that some people are confusing the "road to" with the
> destination. Janice may 'sum it up well' but it seems to me that such
> an attitude may be easier to state than it is to live.
>
> What I do not understand is why we do not see more christians apply
> 'Christian ethics'. But think about it even Christians do 'good'
> because the Bible encourages them to embrace 'Agapa' and the rewards
> for such are eternal. That we are motivated by external and internal
> rewards is hardly unique here.
>
> Don Perrett: According to your quote, which quotes Paul,
> forgivingness is one of the the attributes of Agape. If so then how
> do you reconcile that with the punishment factors of reciprocal
> altruism mentioned in the first paragraph of the Wiki page? Again,
> the discussion is "reciprocal" altruism, but you continue to describe
> altruism.
>
> It's the fear of punishment which evolves to a state where
> forgiveness can happen. Remember that until other group members
> accept the rules, forgiveness may be much harder. If I were
> describing altruism, then evolutionary explanations are even simpler.
>
> Don Perrett; If it is just an evolutionary process, then mankind will
> eventual evolve into agape regardless of God, right?
>
> That depends on whether or not you believe in a God. It supports both
> cases. Those who deny that there is a God surely won't find evidence
> to the contrary here, those who accept God on faith will be
> strengthened to know that what God set in motion is coming true.
>
> Don: Unfortunately it's not that simple. It will require an
> evolutionary change in the course of one lifespan. Each individual
> may evolve into agape but a society cannot, because societies do NOT
> have relationships with Christ.
>
> Societies are built from individuals which is why the group selection
> of reciprocal altruism is so relevant as it goes beyond the
> individual. Even more, as societies form it seems that evolution may
> actual affect the level of religiosity. In other words, religiosity
> itself may evolved in such societies as they play a beneficial role.
> In other words, societies may enable a stronger relationship with
> Christ.
>
>
> Don: Biology may have a factor in social orders and behaviors, but
> not our relationships with God. The reason of course is that due to
> the same biology we have free will (limited as it were). Free will
> even allows us to go against the very animal behaviors to which you
> seem to believe in. (Not meant to assume). What I mean by this is
> that just because something occurs in certain animal groups does not
> mean it is meant for humans.
>
> You seem to be missing the point of my argument. When trying to
> explain the existence of altruism, reciprocal altruism etc, science
> looks for explanations. Science seems to have found said explanations
> and is now looking for similar examples elsewhere in the animal
> kingdom to see if there is support for its position
>
> Don: Personally I've always believed that our only chance of evolving
> is to evolve past the old animal ways and move on to a social and
> spiritual foundation that is BETTER suited for human groups (the old
> owns don't work, i.e. socialism, democracy, classical theocracies,
> etc). Do you know of any species on this planet which will love and
> forgive it's enemies? So if Christ asks us to do this, does this not
> say that Christ wants us to move past the animal instincts such as
> selfishness, anger, aggression, etc? Nationalism, socialism, and
> just about any other ism are the result of animal behaviour.
>
> Sigh... your "arguments" show a blindness around your insistance that
> we ignore our evolutionary history.
> Socialism, communism are all, like Christianity, outcomes of many
> different forces. In fact, communism seems to be applying many of
> Christ's teachings without an appeal to religion, suggesting perhaps
> that such behavior may come 'natural' to us as we evolve towarrds Agape?
>
> As to any other species which will love and forgive its enemies, I am
> not even sure that such is a prevalent position amongst Christians,
> but I'd say some Christians may fall into this group, as would be
> many others who may not hold to the Christian faith. Do we know
> enough about the rest of the animal kingdom to answer the question if
> this form of love extends beyond? And what if Agape requires the
> evolution of language to be successful?
>
> As to your example, we are all looking for reciprocity, in your case
> it was God's approval and guidance. What if the 'old animal ways' are
> part of the path towards the Christian way? What is so horrible about
> our morality to have evolved? As you already suggested, the concept
> of reciprocal altruism was an important factor in the Old Testament,
> evolving into a concept in the NT that would result in Agape,
> although many, even Christians may never reach such a stage? For
> instance, to give an example, in many western countries, the
> punishment factor of the prison system is reduced into a system which
> helps prisoners to become adapted to function well in society. Social
> systems help those who are without work, suffering from abuse/mental
> problems, and to on often without expectations of returns.
> Surprisingly enough, many of these states are not known for belonging
> to any organized religion.
>
> So let me ask you this final question:
>
> What is more Agape like? A Christian who is encouraged by the
> Scriptures to follow the rules knowing the rewards at the end or
> someone (Christian or non-Christian) who freely gives without no
> expectations at all of any returns?
> Perhaps we have reached a stage where organized religion has served
> its purpose and we are returning to a personal relationship with God?
> Just a thought
>
> On Nov 28, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Rich Blinne wrote:
>
> >
> > It is only Christian ethics that breaks this viscious cycle. That's
> > because Christians are to do good to non-kin even when they are not
> > proven to be trustworthy -- even when proven untrustworthy. We are to
> > bless those who curse us, go the extra mile, turn the other cheek,
> > etc.
> >
> > Janice sums this up excellently so I will close with re-quoting her:
> >
> > I do always hope for the best, but I never expect it --therefore, I'm
> > never disappointed ------- but am sometimes surprised. :)
>
>

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Web:  http://www.davidopderbeck.com
Blog:  http://www.davidopderbeck.com/throughaglass.html
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-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Web:  http://www.davidopderbeck.com
Blog:  http://www.davidopderbeck.com/throughaglass.html
MySpace (Music):  http://www.myspace.com/davidbecke
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