Re: [asa] Random and design

Is it not remarkable that evolution brought us to the stage of love
thy neighbor and reciprocal altruism of the Bible allowing us to take
the next step to agape?
It seems that some people are confusing the "road to" with the
destination. Janice may 'sum it up well' but it seems to me that such
an attitude may be easier to state than it is to live.

What I do not understand is why we do not see more christians apply
'Christian ethics'. But think about it even Christians do 'good'
because the Bible encourages them to embrace 'Agapa' and the rewards
for such are eternal. That we are motivated by external and internal
rewards is hardly unique here.

Don Perrett: According to your quote, which quotes Paul,
forgivingness is one of the the attributes of Agape. If so then how
do you reconcile that with the punishment factors of reciprocal
altruism mentioned in the first paragraph of the Wiki page? Again,
the discussion is "reciprocal" altruism, but you continue to describe
altruism.

It's the fear of punishment which evolves to a state where
forgiveness can happen. Remember that until other group members
accept the rules, forgiveness may be much harder. If I were
describing altruism, then evolutionary explanations are even simpler.

Don Perrett; If it is just an evolutionary process, then mankind will
eventual evolve into agape regardless of God, right?

That depends on whether or not you believe in a God. It supports both
cases. Those who deny that there is a God surely won't find evidence
to the contrary here, those who accept God on faith will be
strengthened to know that what God set in motion is coming true.

Don: Unfortunately it's not that simple. It will require an
evolutionary change in the course of one lifespan. Each individual
may evolve into agape but a society cannot, because societies do NOT
have relationships with Christ.

Societies are built from individuals which is why the group selection
of reciprocal altruism is so relevant as it goes beyond the
individual. Even more, as societies form it seems that evolution may
actual affect the level of religiosity. In other words, religiosity
itself may evolved in such societies as they play a beneficial role.
In other words, societies may enable a stronger relationship with
Christ.

Don: Biology may have a factor in social orders and behaviors, but
not our relationships with God. The reason of course is that due to
the same biology we have free will (limited as it were). Free will
even allows us to go against the very animal behaviors to which you
seem to believe in. (Not meant to assume). What I mean by this is
that just because something occurs in certain animal groups does not
mean it is meant for humans.

You seem to be missing the point of my argument. When trying to
explain the existence of altruism, reciprocal altruism etc, science
looks for explanations. Science seems to have found said explanations
and is now looking for similar examples elsewhere in the animal
kingdom to see if there is support for its position

Don: Personally I've always believed that our only chance of evolving
is to evolve past the old animal ways and move on to a social and
spiritual foundation that is BETTER suited for human groups (the old
owns don't work, i.e. socialism, democracy, classical theocracies,
etc). Do you know of any species on this planet which will love and
forgive it's enemies? So if Christ asks us to do this, does this not
say that Christ wants us to move past the animal instincts such as
selfishness, anger, aggression, etc? Nationalism, socialism, and
just about any other ism are the result of animal behaviour.

Sigh... your "arguments" show a blindness around your insistance that
we ignore our evolutionary history.
Socialism, communism are all, like Christianity, outcomes of many
different forces. In fact, communism seems to be applying many of
Christ's teachings without an appeal to religion, suggesting perhaps
that such behavior may come 'natural' to us as we evolve towarrds Agape?

As to any other species which will love and forgive its enemies, I am
not even sure that such is a prevalent position amongst Christians,
but I'd say some Christians may fall into this group, as would be
many others who may not hold to the Christian faith. Do we know
enough about the rest of the animal kingdom to answer the question if
this form of love extends beyond? And what if Agape requires the
evolution of language to be successful?

As to your example, we are all looking for reciprocity, in your case
it was God's approval and guidance. What if the 'old animal ways' are
part of the path towards the Christian way? What is so horrible about
our morality to have evolved? As you already suggested, the concept
of reciprocal altruism was an important factor in the Old Testament,
evolving into a concept in the NT that would result in Agape,
although many, even Christians may never reach such a stage? For
instance, to give an example, in many western countries, the
punishment factor of the prison system is reduced into a system which
helps prisoners to become adapted to function well in society. Social
systems help those who are without work, suffering from abuse/mental
problems, and to on often without expectations of returns.
Surprisingly enough, many of these states are not known for belonging
to any organized religion.

So let me ask you this final question:

What is more Agape like? A Christian who is encouraged by the
Scriptures to follow the rules knowing the rewards at the end or
someone (Christian or non-Christian) who freely gives without no
expectations at all of any returns?
Perhaps we have reached a stage where organized religion has served
its purpose and we are returning to a personal relationship with God?
Just a thought

On Nov 28, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Rich Blinne wrote:

>
> It is only Christian ethics that breaks this viscious cycle. That's
> because Christians are to do good to non-kin even when they are not
> proven to be trustworthy -- even when proven untrustworthy. We are to
> bless those who curse us, go the extra mile, turn the other cheek,
> etc.
>
> Janice sums this up excellently so I will close with re-quoting her:
>
> I do always hope for the best, but I never expect it --therefore, I'm
> never disappointed ------- but am sometimes surprised. :)

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Tue Nov 28 14:00:58 2006