RE: [asa] Random and design

Pim,
 
No one is arguing YOUR interpretation of reciprocal altruism. Which I
believe is why Greg questioned your understanding of it. It is what is
stated in the Wikipedia which you took the first opportunity to use as a
reference. In the Wiki it does NOT say "may" it says "expectation". Now
based upon YOUR interpretation of expect which was discussed earlier with
the whole expect vs hope issue, then expectation of a reciprocation would
mean that the only reason I do for others is that I will get something in
return later. Is this not correct? Then how is this Christian? Christians
are to do for others because it is the right thing to do. Agape is NOT
conditional. Having an expectation of reciprocity is a CONDITION. In
economics, any entity that hordes punishes not only it's self but the entire
system. In society's it can also be the same, but regardless, the Christian
concept of Agape is not in line with reciprocal altruism. In fact the ideas
you seem to imply are very atheistic. Religion as a social science is
usually a point made by those who believe it is just a form of social order
used by those in power. As for scriptural commonality, th OT would
certainly appear in agreement, but again not a Christian concept.
 
Sorry if any of this sounds unclear, I've got bronchitis right now and I'm
probably too medicated to concentrate. :)
 
Don

  _____

From: Pim van Meurs [mailto:pimvanmeurs@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 00:38
To: donperrett@theology-perspectives.net
Cc: ASA Discussions
Subject: Re: [asa] Random and design

In other words, reciprocal altruism matches the 'love thy neighbor' and 'do
unto others' concepts and you argue that it does not match what you believe
Christ seems to tell us in Matthew 5.

So let's explore reciprocal altruism a bit further.

"Reciprocal altruism means helping someone out who needs it, with the
understanding that the favor may be returned at some distant, unspecified
date in the future, whenever the altruist happens to need it. The return
favor may not even come from the
original recipient, but someone else entirely. It's just a general practice
that promotes group survival. "

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-spectrumone.htm

I think the relevant aspect is the 'may be returned at some distant and
unspecified date in the future'. In other words, reciprocal altruisms seems
to have more in common with Scriptures than you may give credit.

Wiki: It would only be expected to evolve in the presence of a mechanism to
identify and punish "cheaters"

And that's where religion comes into play. God can be a very powerful
mechanism that can keep inline potential cheaters.

I am not sure what you mean with 'mixing your religion with economics
again'. And no, your example is not what is more commonly understood to be
reciprocal altruism but rather an example direct exchange. You know you will
be paid a certain amount at a certain time.

Hope this clarifies.

The Golden Rule

12 "Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the
essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.

The ethic of reciprocity or "The Golden Rule" is a fundamental moral
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality> principle found in virtually all
major religions <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions> and cultures
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture> , which simply means "treat others as
you would like to be treated." It is arguably the most essential basis for
the modern concept of human rights
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights> . Principal philosophers and
religious figures have stated it in different ways:

* "Love your neighbor as yourself." - Moses
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses> (ca. 1525-1405 BCE) in the Torah
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah> , Leviticus
<http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Leviticus&verse
=19:18&src=%21> 19:18

* "What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." -
Confucius <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius> (ca. 551-479 BCE)

* "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man." - Hillel
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder> (ca. 50 BCE-10 CE)

* "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." - Jesus
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus> (ca. 5 BCE-33 CE) in the Gospels
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospels> , Luke
<http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Luke&verse=6:31
&src=%21> 6:31; Luke
<http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Luke&verse=10:2
7&src=%21> 10:27 (affirming of Moses)- Matthew
<http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Matthew&verse=7
:12&src=%21> 7:12

* "Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you." - Muhammad
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad> (c. 571 - 632 CE) in The Farewell
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farewell_Sermon> Sermon.

Don wrote:

>So Christ seems to tell us that even if we have nothing to gain from it, we
should love our enemies. This goes against the very grain of the >first
paragraph in the Wiki page on Reciprocal Altruism. Are you sure that you're
not mixing your religion with economics again? I go to work >and in
exchange I expect a paycheck. That is "reciprocal altruism".

Don Perrett

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Received on Mon Nov 27 08:29:44 2006