RE: [asa] Random and design

Pim,
 
Here's the first paragraph of the Wiki page given by Greg:
In evolutionary <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_biology>
biology, reciprocal altruism is a form of altruism
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism> in which one organism provides a
benefit to another in the expectation of future reciprocation
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocation> . This is similar to the Tit
for tat <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat> strategy in game
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory> theory. It would only be expected
to evolve in the presence of a mechanism to identify and punish "cheaters".
A potential example of reciprocal altruism is blood-sharing in the vampire
bat <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_bat> , in which bats feed
regurgitated blood to those who have not collected much blood themselves
knowing that they themselves may someday benefit from this same donation;
cheaters are remembered by the colony and ousted from this collaboration.

This might seem to correlate to the "Love thy Neighbor, "Do unto others as
you would have them do unto you." that you give, but it most certainly does
not fit with the Christian concept. Here's one example from Matthew chapter
5:

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=31#fen-NI
V-23278h> ] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=31#fen-NI
V-23279i> ] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of
your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,
and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who
love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing
that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than
others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your
heavenly Father is perfect.43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your
neighbor[h
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=31#fen-NI
V-23278h> ] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=31#fen-NI
V-23279i> ] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of
your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,
and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who
love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing
that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than
others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your
heavenly Father is perfect.

So Christ seems to tell us that even if we have nothing to gain from it, we
should love our enemies. This goes against the very grain of the first
paragraph in the Wiki page on Reciprocal Altruism. Are you sure that you're
not mixing your religion with economics again? I go to work and in exchange
I expect a paycheck. That is "reciprocal altruism".

Don Perrett

  _____

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Pim van Meurs
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 19:24
To: Gregory Arago
Cc: Rich Blinne; Janice Matchett; David Opderbeck; Richard Fischer; ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Random and design

My position seeks a link between what God is telling us through the
Scriptures and what God is teaching us through His Creation. If evolution is
how God created then why should we ignore its impact on these issues of
morality and ethics.

Reciprocal Altruism: Love thy Neighbor, "Do unto others as you would have
them do unto you."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

The ethic of reciprocity or "The Golden Rule" is a fundamental moral
principle found in virtually all major religions and cultures, which simply
means "treat others as you would like to be treated." It is arguably the
most essential basis for the modern concept of human rights. Principal
philosophers and religious figures have stated it in different ways:

    * "Love your neighbor as yourself." - Moses (ca. 1525-1405 BCE) in the
Torah, Leviticus 19:18
    * "What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." -
Confucius (ca. 551-479 BCE)
    * "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man." - Hillel (ca. 50
BCE-10 CE)
    * "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." - Jesus (ca. 5
BCE-33 CE) in the Gospels, Luke 6:31; Luke 10:27 (affirming of Moses)-
Matthew 7:12
    * "Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you." - Muhammad (c. 571 - 632
CE) in The Farewell Sermon.

Do I expect the worst? Perhaps you can explain. As far as Janice is
concerned, her 'contributions' do not seem to support your interpretation. I
expect the best and am prepared to deal with the worst.

Why are you suggesting that one should abandon science to find a 'new view
of love and trust'? Or why are you suggesting that such a love and trust is
even possible when rejecting God's Creation?

Just a thought

On Nov 26, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Gregory Arago wrote:

Your position priviledges the evolutionary view of morality and ethics. For
example, where does the term 'reciprocal altruism' come from? Is such a view
consistent with responsible Christian theology or is it a forced negotiation
with naturalistic thought? The irony, of course, is that 'expect the worst'
is exemplary of Pim's logic and not Janice's, the latter who seems to tend
towards 'hope for the best'.
 
If you were to un-hitch your views of Christianity from absolute allegiance
to evolutionary logic, Pim, a new view of love and trust and divine justice
may become possible. Why trust Trivers? Just a thought.
 
Arago
 

Pim van Meurs <pimvanmeurs@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
How does my position show a misunderstanding? It has nothing to do
with deserving our love, it has all to do with a position of trust
towards one's neighbors, irregardless of whether or not the neighbor
deserves it.

Love they neighbor seems at odds with hope for the best, expect the
worst.

  _____

The best gets better. See why everyone is raving about the
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40705/*http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=
ca> All-new Yahoo! Mail.

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Sun, 26 Nov 2006 23:58:44 -0500