RE: [asa] Random and design

I expect (pun intended) that this difference of opinion is centered around a
fallacy of definition.

See http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/expect

"-Synonyms 1. Expect, anticipate, hope, await all imply looking to some
future event. Expect implies confidently believing, usually for good
reasons, that an event will occur: to expect a visit from a friend.
Anticipate is to look forward to an event and even to picture it: Do you
anticipate trouble? Hope implies a wish that an event may take place and an
expectation that it will: to hope for the best. Await (wait for) implies
being alert and ready, whether for good or evil: to await news after a
cyclone. "

 If I "expect" the best out of my son, what I'm saying is that I am looking
for him to do his best. One of the definitions of expect can describe this
position, but the word "hope" is really what more closely what I'm saying.
I'm sure he won't always do his best, but I have an expectation that he may,
and I hope that he will make the choices necessary to accomplish it as often
as possible.
 If I "expect" the worst when my two-year-old daughter is left alone in the
kitchen, I anticipate the likelihood that she will have pulled the milk from
the refrigerator, spilled it while trying to pour it herself, given her
cookie to the dog, and that I will find her standing on the countertop
getting ready to climb to the third shelf of the upper cabinet to get down
something to eat. I expect the worst, not because I think badly of her, but
because I know her nature.

To "hope for the best" (or if you prefer, "expect the best") in mankind is
to wish for them to make the right choices and follow a path of altruistic
behavior, etc, and to expect that in many cases the right will prevail. To
"expect the worst" of mankind is to anticipate with confidence, for good
reasons, a likely outcome that mankind left to himself will fall into sin
and degradation on more occasions than not. It doesn't take a Bible scholar
to see that this is a realistic expectation. God knows our nature, even if
we wish to deny it.

[John 2:24] But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all
men,
[John 2:25] And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what
was in man.

[Rom 3:10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[Rom 3:11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh
after God.
[Rom 3:12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become
unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[Rom 3:13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have
used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[Rom 3:14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[Rom 3:15] Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[Rom 3:16] Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[Rom 3:17] And the way of peace have they not known:
[Rom 3:18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[Rom 3:23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

[Psa 53:1] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are
they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
[Psa 53:2] God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if
there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
[Psa 53:3] Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become
filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[Gen 6:11] The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled
with violence.
[Gen 6:12] And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for
all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

 Moses "expected the worst" of the children of Israel, even while he hoped
for the best.
[Deu 31:29] For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt
yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil
will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of
the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
[Deu 33:28] Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob
shall be upon a land of corn and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew.
[Deu 33:29] Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved
by the Lord, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency!
and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon
their high places.

Jon Tandy

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Pim van Meurs
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 10:40 PM
To: Rich Blinne
Cc: Janice Matchett; David Opderbeck; Richard Fischer; ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Random and design

On Nov 25, 2006, at 7:46 PM, Rich Blinne wrote:

> On 11/24/06, Pim van Meurs <pimvanmeurs@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> If I understand you correctly this depravity applies to all, and
>> in fact one
>> may very well argue that anyone has failed to comprehend the
>> depths of one's
>> own depravity, at least under your 'logic'. But this was about
>> abusing
>> Christ's teachings to evangelize a position of expecting the worst
>> from each
>> other and from social institutions and movements. When in fact, it
>> now seems
>> clear that good and evil are expressed with respect to what is
>> done for the
>> Glory of God makes the discussion one of equivocation.
>>
>
> You don't understand her correctly. When we "expect" the worst we are
> not surprised by it and are prepared to forgive any future
> transgressions, particularly personal ones.

Is that what Janice really meant? I'd like to hear from her directly

> It is also a means of
> great optimism because when social institutions and movements (and
> churches and individual Christians for that matter) fail, we are not
> depressed nor dismayed as that is not where our confidence lies. We
> wait for -- as J.R.R. Tolkien coined -- the eucatastrophy as best
> exmplified by the Cross.

Janice's portrayal of hope for the best expect the worst however
seems different from how you interpret the Scriptures.

>
>
>> Given the extent of altruism and reciprocal altruism found not
>> only amongst
>> men but also on other levels of His Creation, I do not see a
>> logical link
>> between the two, in fact I see 'love thy neighbor' as an essential
>> teaching,
>> showing that we should not distrust them. That's the message of
>> love I find
>> in the Scriptures.
>
> You show precisely the misunderstanding of the lawyer that caused
> Jesus to follow up the Golden Rule by the parable of the Good
> Samaritan. When Jesus said "love thy neighbor" it was immediately
> replied with the question who is my neighbor? The reason for the
> response is the implied assumption that our "neighbor" deserves our
> love.

How does my position show a misunderstanding? It has nothing to do
with deserving our love, it has all to do with a position of trust
towards one's neighbors, irregardless of whether or not the neighbor
deserves it.

Love they neighbor seems at odds with hope for the best, expect the
worst. Is that the attitude we as Christians should follow? I'd say
expect the best

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Received on Sun Nov 26 07:38:45 2006