Re: [asa] Innate design detector?

Yes, the criteria are reasonable, as far as I can tell. Yes, the available components would have to meet those criteria. I don't know specific published literature but it seems to me these kinds of criteria are met in many different types of scenarios and there's no reason why it didn't happen here. I think it's more than "here we are, so the criteria were met" though there's some truth to that type of argument. I think the key point is that it is possible and plausible. Whether it is probable or not is debatable but no one has shown the impossibility of it. And by impossibility I include a "below the threshhold" improbability.

Randy
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: David Opderbeck
  To: Randy Isaac
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 9:54 PM
  Subject: Re: [asa] Innate design detector?

  Back to my original question then: are his criteria reasonable? If cooption were to happen, would the available components have to meet his criteria? Is there any published literature demonstrating plausible ways in which the criteria could be met? Or is it just a case of "there must be a way for the criteria to be met, because here we are?"

   
  On 11/8/06, Randy Isaac <randyisaac@adelphia.net> wrote:
    I guess it's a matter of who has the burden of proof: show evidence of exactly how natural processes met each criterion step by step, or show evidence that natural processes could not have met those criteria. Take the inverse of that: what are the implications of not being able to show how natural processes met each criterion. What are the implications of not being able to show that natural processes could not have met those criteria?

    It seems to me that unless you can clearly show that natural processes could not possibly have met those criteria, there's no case.

    Too many double or triple negatives in all that, but I hope the idea comes through.
    Randy
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: David Opderbeck
      To: Randy Isaac
      Cc: asa@calvin.edu
      Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 8:44 PM
      Subject: Re: [asa] Innate design detector?

       
      The flagellum exists. Therefore the criteria have been met.
       
      Right, I'm not summarizing this correctly. I think he's getting at that there's no evidence that any known natural process, including cooption, can meet those criteria. The literature cited by Miller et al. purporting to show how components of the flagellum could have existed elsewhere and been coopted doesn't meet these criteria. The question of probabilities then remains open. (Again, just summarizing his argument here).
       
      On 11/8/06, Randy Isaac <randyisaac@adelphia.net > wrote:
        I don't understand how he can argue that "there is no evidence that they have been met." That seems the easiest. The flagellum exists. Therefore the criteria have been met. He might argue that there's no clear evidence of exactly how they were met and by what causal factors. It just seems to me that if the criteria can be met in principle and there's no clear argument from low probabilities, then the lack of definitive knowledge of exactly how and when each step occurred is of little significance. At least for this argument.

        I admit I'm still searching for the pony in the IC argument. Surely it must be there somewhere.

        Randy
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: David Opderbeck
          To: Randy Isaac
          Cc: asa@calvin.edu
          Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 10:12 PM
          Subject: Re: [asa] Innate design detector?

           
          As I understand Angus' argument, it's not that they can't be met in principle, but in certain systems, particularly the bacterial flagellum, there is no evidence that they have been met. He is in particular responding to arguments by Ken Miller and others purporting to show how the flagellum could have arisen through cooption. He isn't offering any probabilities. I think this is more a defensive argument, responding to arguments against IC in general and relating to the flagellum in particular, than a positive argument for design.

          On 11/5/06, Randy Isaac <randyisaac@adelphia.net > wrote:
            Dave,
                Ever since you posted Angus' criteria, I've been a little baffled by the significance. Certainly the criteria cited seem to be reasonable conditions that need to occur in the development of complex systems. But are there any indications that they cannot, in principle, be met? Or is it simply an argument of low probability for each of these criteria to be met? We're a long way from determining any probabilities quantitatively so is this one of the arguments from incredulity? that surely these conditions couldn't possibly be met so something else must have happened?

                Randy

            ----- Original Message -----
              From: David Opderbeck
              ....
               What I'm asking is specifically whether those availability, synchronization, localization, coordination, and interface compability criteria are reasonable. Perhaps they are reasonable criteria and chance and regularity can meet them. I'm just curious whether the criteria make sense, and if not, specifically why not.

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Received on Thu Nov 9 22:13:44 2006