At 09:45 PM 10/22/2006, David Opderbeck wrote:
> Quick addendum -- I happened to have John=20
> Walton's NIV Application Commentary on Genesis=20
> handy and took a quick peek -- his take is that=20
> "pain in childbirth" actually refers to "anxiety=20
> in conception," not physical pain at=20
> all. According to Walton, the Hebrew translated=20
> "childbirth" actually refers to "conception,"=20
> not childbirth, and the Hebrew translated "pain"=20
> only appears a few other times in the OT and=20
> generally refers to "anxiety." Walton also=20
> interprets this particular consequence not as a=20
> "curse," but as a description of one consequence=20
> that flows from the actual curse, which is "death."
>
> So, Walton says, the most likely meaning of this=20
> text is that people will have anxiety mingled=20
> with the joy of bringing children into the world=20
> because their children will suffer the=20
> brokenness and death that comes from the=20
> curse. This wouldn't resolve the problem of how=20
> humans experienced physical death before the=20
> fall if Adam & Eve were literal and more recent,=20
> but it would seem to resolve the anatomical=20
> problem that childbirth has always been rather painful.
@ Glenn Miller=20
@ http://www.Christian-thinktank.com would=20
probably agree with Walton's take - as would I,=20
but he also mentions this, which I have excerpted from the item below::
"..There is not even a hint in the biblical text,=20
by the way, that this applied to anyone other=20
than or anyone after Eve(!), so to argue for=20
extensive physiological changes in female anatomy=20
which occurred at that time, and which were=20
passed on to her female progeny is going way beyond the textual
data..."
~ Janice ... read on:
The Genesis 3 passage, of course, reads like this=20
(from traditional translations):
To the woman He said, =93I will greatly multiply=20
Your pain in childbirth, In pain you shall bring=20
forth children; Yet your desire shall be for your=20
husband, And he shall rule over you.=94
17 Then to Adam He said, =93Because you have=20
listened to the voice of your wife, and have=20
eaten from the tree about which I commanded you,=20
saying, =91You shall not eat from it=92; Cursed is=20
the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat=20
of it All the days of your life. 18 =93Both thorns=20
and thistles it shall grow for you; And you shall=20
eat the plants of the field; 19 By the sweat of=20
your face You shall eat bread, Till you return to=20
the ground, Because from it you were taken; For=20
you are dust, And to dust you shall return.=94 [NASB]
To the woman he said, =93I will greatly increase=20
your pains in childbearing; with pain you will=20
give birth to children. Your desire will be for=20
your husband, and he will rule over you.=94
17 To Adam he said, =93Because you listened to your=20
wife and ate from the tree about which I=20
commanded you, =91You must not eat of it,=92 =93Cursed=20
is the ground because of you; through painful=20
toil you will eat of it all the days of your=20
life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for=20
you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19=20
By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food=20
until you return to the ground, since from it you=20
were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.=94 [NIV]
To the woman he said, =93I will greatly increase=20
your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall=20
bring forth children, yet your desire shall be=20
for your husband, and he shall rule over you.=94
17 And to the man he said, =93Because you have=20
listened to the voice of your wife, and have=20
eaten of the tree about which I commanded you,=20
=91You shall not eat of it,=92 cursed is the ground=20
because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all=20
the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it=20
shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the=20
plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face=20
you shall eat bread until you return to the=20
ground, for out of it you were taken; you are=20
dust, and to dust you shall return.=94 [NRSV]
To the woman he said: =93I will intensify the=20
pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you=20
bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for=20
your husband, and he shall be your master.=94
17 To the man he said: =93Because you listened to=20
your wife and ate from the tree of which I had=20
forbidden you to eat, =93Cursed be the ground=20
because of you! In toil shall you eat its yield=20
all the days of your life. 18 Thorns and thistles=20
shall it bring forth to you, as you eat of the=20
plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your=20
face shall you get bread to eat, Until you=20
return to the ground, from which you were taken;=20
For you are dirt, and to dirt you shall return.=94 [NAB]
Western interpreters have traditionally=20
understood these references to the pains of=20
childbirth (even to the point of resisting the=20
introduction of anesthesia into labor/delivery in=20
the 19th century!), but I have lost my confidence=20
that this is the correct exegesis of the passage,=20
for the following reasons and considerations:
1. The effects of the first 'sin' (i.e,=20
disruption and dissonance in the universe) were=20
massive, and not at all restricted to Adam's=20
workload and Eve's childbearing. The cosmic=20
disruption (like ripples you can't ever call=20
back) had BOTH a moral aspect to it (i.e., 'sin'=20
or 'moral failure' or 'crime) which WAS forgiven=20
both Adam and Eve; AND a physical aspect to it=20
(i.e., consequences) which can only be softened=20
or worked around. [For example, I can give=20
someone a black eye, and get them to forgive me=20
instantly, but the swelling won't instantly go=20
away/down...some consequences=20
ripple-through...and if I had chopped off their=20
right thumb in anger, it would NEVER grow back or=20
be restored, even though they could completely forgive me.
2. In this first case, the disruption affected=20
the physical processes of life, throwing them out=20
of synch with one another...various cycles of=20
agriculture, for example, would now be=20
out-of-phase, creating 'pain' for the=20
man-gardener [the Hebrew word for 'painful toil'=20
in verse 17 (cf. also Genesis 5.29: "the toil of=20
our hands"), 'asab, for the man is the SAME=20
Hebrew root used for the 'painful toil' of the=20
woman in childbearing--the difficulty for each is=20
to be equal for each, essentially], just as the=20
muscle systems can work against one another in childbirth, sometimes...
3. This Great Disruption affected processes=20
everywhere--for example, human life span began to=20
decrease over time right after the Garden--but=20
the only aspects mentioned in Genesis 3 are the=20
one's 'closest' to the initial 'jobs' given Adam=20
and Eve. Adam was a 'farmer/gardener' and so his=20
initial and perhaps most vivid encounter with=20
this large-scale disruption would be in his=20
day-to-day work; Eve was the 'mother of all=20
living' and it would be in that role that she=20
would encounter the effects of the disruption=20
most vividly. The Disruption was not at all=20
confined to these two aspects of cosmic=20
experience (Paul used the phrase "all creation" in Romans).
4. Actually, I should also point out that the=20
word translated 'pain' there, might actually mean=20
'sorrow' instead--it is NOT the normal word in=20
the bible for childbirth pain (which is=20
hebel)...and this sorrow could refer to bringing=20
children into a post-Eden world, a world that=20
contained deception, treachery, and failure in it.
=B7 "There is no doubt that this term=20
refers to physical pain. Its root lies in a verb=20
that means 'to injure, cause pain or grief.'=20
Whether the pain would lie in the agony of=20
childbirth or in the related grief that=20
accompanies raising that child cannot be finally=20
determined; the text would seem to allow both=20
ideas." [<http://www.christian-thinktank.com/bookabs.html#HSOBX>HSOBX]
=B7 The meaning of the two words given by=20
TDOT are "sorrow, labor" (for woman) and "sorrow,=20
toil" (for men)--there is a different word for=20
childbirth pain (hebel: "very intense pain in=20
childbirth" [Louw-Nida Dict of Biblical Languages=20
with Semantic Domains: Old Testament )
=B7 The HAL gives the following meanings for the word:
1. hurt: a hurtful word : Pr 15.1;
2. strenuous work Pr 10.22 , 14.23 ; pl. what is=20
acquired with difficulty Pr 5.10, bread acquired=20
with pain, or bread of anxious toil Ps 127.2,
3. pain (of childbirth) Gn 3.16
=B7 The Louw-Nida definitions focus largely=20
on the difficulty, trouble, hard work of doing something (e.g., labor!)
=B7 "Neither the word used here for=20
'pain,' nor the earlier one, is the usual one=20
for the pangs of childbirth."=20
[<http://www.christian-thinktank.com/bookabs.html#WBC>WBC, in. loc.]
=B7 "The next clause strengthens the one we=20
have been discussing by adding 'in sorrow [or=20
pain] you will bring forth children'. Once again=20
note that bearing children in itself was a=20
blessing described in the so-called orders of=20
creation of Genesis 1:28. The grief lies not so=20
much in the conception or in the act of=20
childbirth itself, but in the whole process of=20
bringing children into the world and raising them=20
up to be whole persons before=20
God."[<http://www.christian-thinktank.com/bookabs.html#HSOBX>HSOBX]
=B7 "Some believe that the Hebrew root=20
underlying "pains," "pain" and "painful toil"=20
should here be understood in the sense of=20
burdensome labor (see Pr 5:10, "toil"; 14:23,=20
"hard work")" [NIV Study Bible Notes]
5.=20
[See=20
<http://www.christian-thinktank.com/wgencurz.html>http://
www.christian-think=
tank.com/wgencurz.html=20
for a discussion on the "he shall master you"...]
6. The 'increase your pain in childbearing' is=20
literally 'increase your pain/toil/sorrow and=20
your pregnancies'...the Disruption Factor would=20
have created much more "vulnerable" lives (which=20
it did, through both harsher living conditions,=20
shorter lifespans, and through increasing amounts=20
of human treachery/violence), and for the human=20
race to continue, expand, and thrive would have=20
required a faster child-production rate (as it=20
would also require a faster and higher-yield=20
agricultural production rate, to compensate for=20
the effects of the curse on the ground)...there=20
is a certain amount of exertion-pain with normal=20
childbirth (severe muscle exertion pain, as an=20
extreme weight-lifter might feel in spurts), and=20
this could have stayed constant with only the SUM=20
TOTAL of the discomfort increased, through=20
increased FREQUENCY of childbirth events (to=20
offset natural death rates). As death invaded the=20
world, infant mortality would also have arisen,=20
and nothing bears so much sorrow/pain/grief for a=20
mother than the loss of a child. This too, would=20
have increased, with the required increase in childbirth rates.
7. Finally, let me also point out that there are=20
a couple of very important textual problems in=20
the passage, and that a strong case can be made=20
for a radically different understanding of this=20
passage. Let me give the summary from HSOBX on this:
"Katherine C. Bushnell, in God's Word to Woman,=20
suggests that verse 16 be translated differently=20
since the Hebrew text could support such a=20
reading. She noted that some ancient versions=20
attached the meaning of 'lying in wait', 'an=20
ambush', or a 'snare' to the word generally read=20
as 'multiply.' This idea of a snare or a lying in=20
wait, however, may have been moved back to=20
Genesis 3:15 from its more normal position in=20
Genesis 3:16. Bushnell would render the opening=20
words of verse 16 this way: "Unto the woman he=20
said, 'A snare has increased your sorrow and sighing.' "
"This translation is not all that different in=20
meaning from the more traditional "I will greatly=20
multiply..." The difference between the two=20
readings is found wholly in the interlinear=20
Hebrew vowel signs which came as late as the=20
eighth century of the Christian era. The=20
difference is this (using capital letters to show=20
the original Hebrew consonantal text and=20
lowercase to show the late addition of the vowel=20
letters): HaRBah AaRBeh, "I will greatly=20
multiply," and HiRBah Ao-ReB, "has caused to=20
multiply (or made great) a lying-in-wait." The=20
participial form ARB appears some fourteen times=20
in Joshua and is translated as "ambush" or "a lying in wait."
"If this reading is correct (and some ancient=20
versions read such a word just a few words back=20
in verse 15, probably by misplacement), then that=20
"lier-in-wait' would undoubtedly he that subtle=20
serpent, the devil. He it was who would increase=20
the sorrow of raising children. This is the only=20
way we can explain why the idea of "a snare" or=20
"lying-in-wait" still clings to this context.
"But another matter demands our attention in=20
verse 16, the word for conception. This=20
translation is difficult because the Hebrew word=20
HRN is not the correct way to spell conception.=20
It is spelled correctly as HRJWN in Ruth 4:13 and=20
Hosea 9:11. But this spelling in Genesis 3:16 is=20
two letters short and its vowels are also=20
unusual. The form is regarded by lexical=20
authorities such as Brown, Driver and Briggs as a=20
contraction or even an error. The early Greek=20
translation (made in the third or second century=20
before Christ) read instead [...] meaning=20
"sighing." The resultant meaning for this clause=20
would be "A snare has increased your sorrow and sighing..."
"Furthermore, it must be remembered that this=20
statement, no matter how we shall finally=20
interpret it, is from a curse passage. In no case=20
should it be made normative. And if the Evil One=20
and not God is the source of the sorrow and=20
sighing, then it is all the more necessary for us=20
to refuse to place any degree of normativity to=20
such statements and describe either the ordeal of=20
giving birth to a child, or the challenge of=20
raising that child, as an evil originating in=20
God. God is never the source of evil; he would=20
rather bless women. Instead, it is Satan who has set this trap."
[Note: in addition to the LXX rendering of=20
"conception" as "sighings/groanings", Augustine=20
comments on this clause in a similar fashion:=20
"For she clearly has her pains and sighs=20
multiplied in the woes of this life." (Manicheans 2.19.29).]
What this would mean--if this understanding is=20
correct--is that the passage may simply be a=20
descriptive one (instead of a prescriptive one),=20
in which God is reminding the woman that the Evil=20
one was not a dispenser of blessings and life,=20
but of sorrow, grief, and toil...
Whether this last point is correct or not, it=20
seems to me that the passage is focused on the=20
subjective aspect of birthing and raising a child in a post-Eden world.
[There is not even a hint in the biblical text,=20
by the way, that this applied to anyone other=20
than or anyone after Eve(!), so to argue for=20
extensive physiological changes in female anatomy=20
which occurred at that time, and which were=20
passed on to her female progeny is going way=20
beyond the textual data...I cannot imagine the=20
subjective/emotional aspect alone of having=20
actually lived in the Garden and then bringing=20
each child into a fallen world of alienation and=20
hardship...its hard enough to do that NOT having=20
seen the Garden, if you know what I mean...]
Glenn Miller http://www.Christian-thinktank.com
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Received on Fri Oct 27 01:31:41 2006
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