Re: [asa] The Old Testament God is ..

billions of violent deaths at the hands of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and others

I think you're off by an order of magnitude or more here. Maybe 100 million, tops. Yes, lots have suffered and died, but far more have prospered relative to the recent past. And face it--everybody dies anyway. The dead are in the past; focus on the living: Generally speaking, only Africa and parts the Middle East and from there to the north present us with the really sad stories these days. China and India are (relatively) surging--and that's two billion plus there alone. SE Asia and Indonesia are also largely coming along, as is much of S America. In my travels in the Far East I've seen multitudes of vibrant, apparently happy and prospering people. If you haven't been there recently, you'd probably be surprised. They don't have much in terms of US dollars, but it takes very little to get along reasonably well there.

The growth in sophistication is likely more important spiritually than the growth in wealth, and the growth in sophistication is much more widespread than the growth in wealth. Everybody has TV, even Arabs. The world is growing up very fast, and it would take major catastrophes to derail the trend. The "catastrophes" people grimly point to on the horizon are at this point hypothetical.

[Why isn't ASA posting these messages??]

Don

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: David Opderbeck<mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com>
  To: Don Winterstein<mailto:dfwinterstein@msn.com>
  Cc: asa<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
  Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 7:45 AM
  Subject: Re: [asa] The Old Testament God is ..

  You're glossing over the major differences in the nature of the revelation over time.

  I hardly think tracing the covenants through Christ and the new covenant is "glossing over" anything. If it is "glossing over," then Jesus, Paul, the author of Hebrews, all the Church fathers, and the confessing Church through the ages applied the same "gloss."

  You're citing only the narrow negatives.

  And I hardly think billions of violent deaths at the hands of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and others, the genocides, starvation and disease in the global South today, an the corruption, vice and disregard for life in the global North, are "narrow" negatives.

  Think of the incredible positives: More people (percentagewise) far better educated than ever, living vastly more peaceful and productive lives than ever, far wealthier than ever, having far more leisure than ever, having far more occupational options than ever, having far better understanding of the world around them than ever, able to travel farther and far more readily, etc., etc.

  This is true only for a small percentage of us relatively wealthy folks in the global North. It is not true for most of the world's population today. I certainly agree that technology has enabled many of us in the North to enjoy a standard of living unrivaled in history. But it's grossly naive to project our standard of living onto the world as a whole, or to assume that technological progress will eliminate human evil.

  On 10/7/06, Don Winterstein <dfwinterstein@msn.com<mailto:dfwinterstein@msn.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> "I'd say that God progressively revealed more about Himself and His plan of salvation over time,...."
>
> You're glossing over the major differences in the nature of the revelation over time. You can't go in a straight line from Joshua to the Gospel of John, for example. To take that route requires an extremely convoluted path, to say the least.
>
>
> "Given that we're living in the most violent period in human history...[etc.], I find it very difficult to conclude that "people have collectively grown up."
>
> You're citing only the narrow negatives. Think of the incredible positives: More people (percentagewise) far better educated than ever, living vastly more peaceful and productive lives than ever, far wealthier than ever, having far more leisure than ever, having far more occupational options than ever, having far better understanding of the world around them than ever, able to travel farther and far more readily, etc., etc. We are very different from any of our forebears and far more sophisticated. We have indeed grown up significantly, and God's message should adjust to that, just as it has adjusted in the past to major changes in collective traits of people.
>
> Don
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Opderbeck
> To: Don Winterstein
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
>
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 8:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [asa] The Old Testament God is ..
>
>
> On the contrary, God hasn't changed; he's the same now as then. But people as a whole were considerably different, and God took on a persona that was appropriate for the time. The writing prophets already softened God's image considerably relative to that revealed in the Pentateuch, and Jesus softened God's image by a quantum leap. It's this softer image that's closer to the universal truth.
>
> We're a little closer here, but I wouldn't say it this way. I'd say that God progressively revealed more about Himself and His plan of salvation over time, culminating in His ultimate self-revelation in Christ. I'd also say that although the basis for God's relationship with people has always been the same (grace), the economia through which He has related to people has changed. In the past, He related to people primarily through covenants mediated by the Law and administered through the nation of Israel; presently, He relates to people through a covenant mediated by Christ and administered through the Church. Thus, the progressive nature of God's self-revelation is not primarily to accomodate changing cultural norms (though it partly is that), but rather primarily reflects the outworking of His eternal plan of salvation.
>
> I think people have changed again, and God's image can now become even softer. It's as if people collectively have grown up, and the image of the strict, domineering parent no longer applies.
>
> Given that we're living in the most violent period in human history -- two world wars, communist ideologies that claimed tens of millions of lives, and ongoing genocide in places like Darfur; that our popular and legal culture often values personal autonomy above everything else, including human life; that we may be on the brink of environmental collapse because of our own actions and inactions; and that unspeakable poverty afflicts a substantial part of the world's population even though the West produces enough food and money to completely eradicate it, I find it very difficult to conclude that "people have collectively grown up." And as I read the apocalyptic literature in the New Testament, it seems to me that nothing in the NT has erased the power of God's holiness or the certainty of His judgment.
>
> It's strange that this asa forum, set up for scientists, deals far more with YECs than with atheists.
>
> True.
>
>
> On 10/6/06, Don Winterstein < dfwinterstein@msn.com<mailto:dfwinterstein@msn.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > "You admit the OT God is indeed a nasty fellow...."
> >
> > On the contrary, God hasn't changed; he's the same now as then. But people as a whole were considerably different, and God took on a persona that was appropriate for the time. The writing prophets already softened God's image considerably relative to that revealed in the Pentateuch, and Jesus softened God's image by a quantum leap. It's this softer image that's closer to the universal truth. The image could be softened in NT times partly because there was far less chance then that God's people would, for example, start burning their kids as sacrifices to the various gods. People had changed. And look at how much more successful this softer image has been than was the fierce image of old!
> >
> > I think people have changed again, and God's image can now become even softer. It's as if people collectively have grown up, and the image of the strict, domineering parent no longer applies.
> >
> > But if you're dealing with atheists--as I had done most of my career as a scientist, it's important not to let them find too much consolation in the OT. By saying that the OT persona presents the best image of God gives them lots of consolation. By arguing that this persona served a temporary purpose only may make them a bit uncomfortable.
> >
> > [It's strange that this asa forum, set up for scientists, deals far more with YECs than with atheists. In my 25 years as a professional scientist I think I came upon maybe two YECs, and both of them later converted to something else, one to a bitter atheism. In contrast, the professionals who were most likely to give their views on religion were atheists or agnostics. (Occasionally I discovered some of the silent ones were closet Christians, but I usually found this out at such events as funerals. Were they ashamed to attend their own funeral, I wonder?)]
> >
> > Don

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Received on Sun Oct 8 09:45:31 2006