Re: Fw: [asa] Vatican Astronomer Replaced

Thanks for pointing this out, Pim.

Bruce Chapman's quote snipping is absolutely scandalous, but also reveals
that Janice is not too bothered about checking the validity of her sources.
Must tighten up my "Janice filter" so I don't even get the stuff that people
reply to.

Iain

On 8/23/06, Pim van Meurs <pimvanmeurs@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "By every standard I'm aware of, those remarks are heretical. "
>
> That by itself means little as I am not familiar with the standards with
> which you are familiar.
>
> But in proper context the statement may seem less heretical. I assume you
> read the full article or just the quote mine?
> When the article is fully read, I believe that Janice's position as usual
> is untenable and irresponsible. But that's just my personal opinion, others
> have already voiced how her 'contributions' serve to further trivialize the
> ASA list. A more cynical person might even conclude that this is perhaps the
> ultimate goal. After all, how best to silence the voice of reason...
>
>
> The quote continues
>
> A short answer for the theologian is, of course, that God is transcendent,
> outside of space and time, and knows everything
> simultaneously. But God is also immanent in the universe.
>
>
> But this reasoning about God's knowledge from within the universe does not
> place a limitation upon God.
> Far from it. It reveals a God who made a universe that has within it a
> certain dynamism and thus participates
> in the very creativity of God. If they respect the results of modem
> science, religious believers must move
> away from the notion of a dictator God, a Newtonian God who made the
> universe as a watch that ticks along
> regularly. Perhaps God should be seen more as a parent. Scripture is very
> rich in this thought. It presents,
> indeed anthropomorphically, a God who gets angry, who disciplines, a God
> who nurtures the universe.
> Theologians already possess the concept of God's continuous creation. I
> think to explore modem science
> with this notion of continuous creation would be a very enriching
> experience for theologians and religious
> believers. God is working with the universe. The universe has a certain
> vitality of its own like a child does.
> You discipline a child but you try to preserve and enrich the individual
> character of the child and its own
> passion for life. A parent must allow the child to grow into adulthood, to
> come to make its own choices, to
> go on its own way in life. In such wise does God deal with the universe.
>
> and
>
> These are very weak images, but how else do we talk about God. We can only
> come to know God by
> analogy. The universe as we know it today through science is one way to
> derive analogical knowledge of
> God. For those who believe modem science does say something to us about
> God, it provides a challenge, an
> enriching challenge, to traditional beliefs about God. But there is always
> the temptation in this reasoning to
> make God into our own image and likeness. This would be idolatry.
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: Todd Pedlar <pedlto01@luther.edu>
> To: Pim van Meurs <pimvanmeurs@yahoo.com>; Jim Armstrong <
> jarmstro@qwest.net>
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu; pedlto01@luther.edu
> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 10:28:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Vatican Astronomer Replaced
>
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:04:43 -0500, Pim van Meurs <pimvanmeurs@yahoo.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Aha heretical beliefs. Sounds like you oppose intelligent design as
> well
> > as Ann Coulter as well then? Or are heretical beliefs just in the eye
> of
> > the beholder.
> > Perhaps Janice can point us to some examples of Coyne's position?
>
> Perhaps you didn't read the quotation pulled from Coyne's
> own conference notes, which are available at:
>
> http://www.aei.org/docLib/20051027_HandoutCoyne.pdf
>
> The quotation from Janice's earlier posting (below your
> remarks, but perhaps you missed them in your haste to
> post your comments) is:
>
> "If we take the results of modern science seriously, it is difficult to
> believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient in the sense of the
> scholastic philosophers. Science tells us of a god who must be very
> different from God as seen by the medieval philosophers and theologians.
> Let us ask the hard question. Could, for instance, God after a billion
> years in a fourteen billion year old universe have predicted that human
> life would come to be? Let us suppose that God possessed the theory of
> everything, knew all the laws of physics, all the fundamental forces.
> Even
> then could God know with certainty that human life would come to be? If
> we
> truly accept the scientific view that, in addition to necessary
> processes
> and the immense opportunities offered by the universe, there are also
> chance processes, then it would appear that not even God could know the
> outcome with certainty. God cannot know what is not knowable."
>
> By every standard I'm aware of, those remarks are heretical. They
> have made a man out of God, a limited being that is incapable of
> understanding his own creation... and presume limitations on Him that
> are contrary to the Bible's teaching.
>
> Sorry, Pim, but Janice is right here to point out the heresy involved
> in Coyne's remarks. I know you see eye to eye with Janice on just
> about nothing, but at least you should be able to admit that his
> ideas run contrary to the teaching (at least) of the Roman Catholic
> church. We won't get into how far astray his ideas have fallen from
> Biblical truth.
>
> Todd
> ___________________________________________________
> Todd K. Pedlar
> Assistant Professor of Physics, Luther College
> pedlto01@luther.edu
> ___________________________________________________
> "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and
> won't change the subject." -- Winston Churchill
>
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