[asa] Re: Animal Death Question

Hi Jack!
I believe you already told me you found my list of
websites useful below. Please let me know when your
FAQ on "animal and/or human death before the fall" is
complete!

Also, consider contacting a Christian publisher with
an idea for a debate book that includes a variety of
theological opinions on this particular topic, as I
think most Evangelicals would find such a topic of
immense interest, it being especially relevant to the
young-earth old-earth split! Two Evangelical
publishers currently produce "viewpoints" series,
Intervarsity and Zondervan. And this topic alone seems
important enough for Evangelicals such as yourself to
contact such publishers with a book-length debate
idea.

"Viewpoints" Books by InterVarsity Press:

In Search Of The Soul: Four Views Of The Mind-body
Problem
Two Views of Hell: A Biblical and Theological Dialog
Four Views on Divine sovereignty and Human Freedom
Four Christian Views of Economics
Four Theologians Debate the Major Millennial Views
Women in Ministry: Four Views
Divorce and Remarriage: Four Christian Views
Theologians and Philosophers Examine Four Approaches
to War

"Viewpoints" Books by Zondervan Press, part of their
Counterpoints Series:

Two Views on Women in Ministry
Three Views on the Rapture
Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond
Three Views on Creation and Evolution
Are Miraculous Gifts for Today: Four Views
Show Them No Mercy: Four Views on God and Canaanite
Genocide
Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World
Four Views on the Book of Revelation
Four Views on Eternal Security
Four Views on Hell
Five Views of Law and Gospel
Five Views on Sanctification
Five Views on Apologetics

The Society of Christian Philosophers has also
published a debate book: Contemporary Debate in the
Philosophy of Religion (Section III. features debates
between Christian/theistic philosophers on questions
such as "Can Only One Religion Be True?" "Does God
Take Risks in Governing the World?" "Does God Respond
to Petitionary Prayer?" "Is Eternal Damnation
Compatible with the Christian Concept of God?" "Is
Morality Based on God's Commands?" "Should a Christian
Be a Mind-Body Dualist?" Concerning such questions,
none of the Christian/theistic philosophers were
convinced by the others' arguments.)

--- Jack Haas <haas.john@comcast.net> wrote:

> Ed,
> As I remember, the question was asked quite a while
> ago. Most people
> (60%) responded that it was important.
> I will use your materials to develop an FAQ on the
> subject.
>
> Thank you for taking the time to do this.
>
> Jack Haas, ASA Web Editor
>
> Edward Babinski wrote:
>> Jack,
>> The "death or no death" question IS a major
> dividing
>> line. If the first "sin" did not have violent and
>> distinctive historical consequences, i.e., if
> "death"
>> was something that already abounded in nature,
>> including major extinctions on the planet long
> before
>> humans became fully human, then creationists feel
>> robbed of the Bible's relevancy and admit they may
>> have to question whether the Bible itself may not
> be
>> simply a matter of interpretation. I mean, if
> death
>> reigned on earth prior to the first sin, and if
> Jesus
>> died to save the world, but in both cases death
>> continued to reign all over the earth for billions
> of
>> years in the past and for two thousand years after
>> Jesus died to conquer death, then it DOES all
> appear
>> to be a matter of interpretation, no? Discuss
> amongst
>> yourselves.
>> ---------
>> Personally, I think that non-young earth
> creationists
>> ought to be more pro-active in questioning all
>> young-earth claims that there was "no death before
> the
>> fall." To that end, I have compiled a list of
> articles
>> by Christians who question such claims on the web:
>
>>
>> CHRISTIANS AGREE, THERE WAS PHYSICAL DEATH BEFORE
> THE
>> FALL:
>>
>> "No Physical Death Before the Fall?" by Glen Kuban
>> (who finds that hypothesis questionable from both
> a
>> theological and scientific perspective)
>> http://paleo.cc/ce/nodeath.htm
>> ------------
>> "The Fall" by Carl Drews (Christian theistic
>> evolutionist)
>>
>
http://www.theistic-evolution.com/theisticevolution.html#The%20Fall
>> ------------
>> "Death Through Sin" by by Jim Schicatano ("Many
> Bible
>> readers have developed an erroneous understanding
> of
>> our punishment following man's fall.")
>> http://home.att.net/~jamspsu84/ttocdeath.html
>> ------------
>> "Death Before the Fall of Man" by Greg Neyman �
> 2005,
>> Answers In Creation
>> http://www.answersincreation.org/death.htm
>> ------------
>> "No Death Before the Fall - A Young Earth Heresy"
> by
>> Rich Deem
>> http://www.answersincreation.org/heresy.htm
>> ------------
>> "Chronology of The Fall" by Randy Isaac ("No
>> interpretation is entirely satisfactory, each
> teaches
>> some aspect of the truth.")
>>
>
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Bible-Science/PSCF3-96Issac.html
>> ------------
>> "Death Before the Fall: The Theology" by Glenn R.
>> Morton
>> http://home.entouch.net/dmd/death.htm
>> ------------
>> "Death Before the Fall: God Created Cellular Death
>> Codes" by Glenn R. Morton
>> http://home.entouch.net/dmd/death1.htm
>> ------------
>> "Animal Death Before the Fall:What Does the Bible
>> Say?" by Lee Irons
>>
>
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/other_papers/
animal_death_before_the_fall.shtml
>>
>>
>
http://www.upper-register.com/other_studies/
animal_death_before_fall.html
>> -------------
>> "Animal Death Before Human Sin" by Craig Rusbult,
>> Ph.D.
>>
>
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/death-cr.htm
>> -------------
>> Theological Analysis of Selected Recent (or
> "Young")
>> Creationist Assertions Concerning the Occurrence
> of
>> Death before Sin by Gary Emberger
>>
>
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2000/PSCF9-00Emberger.html
>> --------------
>> Disease and Dying in the Fossil Record:
> Implications
>> for Christian Theology by Clarence Menninga
>>
>
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1999/PSCF12-99Menninga.html
>> --------------
>> Thermodynamics and Theology: Entropy, Disorder,
> and
>> Sin(and Young-Earth Creationism)by by Craig
> Rusbult,
>> Ph.D.
>>
>
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/thermot.htm
>> --------------
>>
>> And, speaking of taking such criticisms to the
> max...
>>
>> CREATIONISTS' "NO DEATH" CONJECTURE IS AS FULL OF
> SH*T
>> AS ADAM'S ASS
>>
>> "No death... before 'The Fall!'" is their war cry.
> But
>> how many young-earth creationists have given that
>> entirely unsubstantiated dogmatic claim a single
>> rational "once over?"
>>
>> What about accidental death? Was the movement of
> every
>> "pre-Fall" creature finely choreographed? Did
> monkeys
>> swing wildly in trees but never crush an insect on
> a
>> branch nor upset an insect egg nor bird egg in the
>> process? Did a curious monkey never pick up an
> insect
>> or egg out of curiosity and accidentally crush or
> drop
>> it. No large herbivore ever tried to take a bite
> out
>> of a much tiner critter that looked green enough
> to
>> eat, nor accidentally ingested it because it was
> on
>> the leaf it was already chewing and swallowing?
> Did
>> sharks hunger solely for seaweed and carefully
> spit
>> out even the tiniest fish that might inhabit the
>> seaweed out of which the shark bit an enormous
>> mouthful? No mistaken swallowing of any tiny live
> fish
>> at all by much larger fish? What about a large
> animal
>> galloping along and breathing heavy and
> accidentally
>> inhaling an insect? Did Brontosauruses dodge every
>> breathing thing underfoot with each gargantuan
> step,
>> including ants, beetles, worms, amphibians,
> reptiles,
>> and mammals? Did spiders assist in the release of
> any
>> insect that flew haphazardly into their webs?
>>
>> I guess the deaths of plant cells (that every
>> breathing creature in Genesis 1 was commanded to
> eat
>> "for food") does not count, just the deaths of
> animal
>> cells. But plant and animal cells both have a
> nucleus,
>> cytoplasm and cell wall. (Never mind about the
>> question of whether or not single celled
>> "plant-i-mals" like the Euglena--that have both
> plant
>> chlorophyll and a flagellar "tail" on the end with
>> which to move around like an animal--lived or
> died.)
>>
>> Also..."without death" a single bacterial cell
> that
>> divides every twenty minutes would multiply to a
> mass
>
=== message truncated ===

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Received on Fri Aug 4 18:52:48 2006