Re: [asa] DeYoung at Auckland

Absolutely brilliant! Short and utterly deadly.

Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Nield" <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>
To: "Dick Fischer" <dickfischer@verizon.net>
Cc: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] DeYoung at Auckland

Dick:
Here is the statement that you requested be posted to this forum.
Don
*******************************************************

*A critique of /Thousands… Not Billions /by Dr Don DeYoung (Master
Books, 2005)*

by Donald Nield, Department of Engineering Science, University of Auckland

d.nield@auckland.ac.nz

This book is a popular version of the book /Radioisotopes and the Age of
the Earth, Volume II/ (eds. Vardiman et al.) reporting on the conclusion
of an eight-year research project of the Institute of Creation Research
and the Creation Research Society. The argument presented may be
summarized as follows.

   1. It is accepted that there is overwhelming evidence of more than
      half a billion years worth of radioactive decay.
   2. Biblical interpretation and four areas of scientific studies
      namely (i) helium diffusion in zircons, (ii) radiohalos, (iii)
      isochron discordances, (iv) trace amounts of C-14 in pre-Cambrian
      material, indicate a young earth.
   3. Hence radioactive decay must have accelerated by a factor of a
      billion during the first three days of creation and during the flood.
   4. It is recognized that there are two unresolved problems, but there
      is confidence that these will solved in the future.
   5. Therefore the RATE project provides encouragement regarding the
      reliability of the Bible.

My comments are

1. This is an important concession!

2. The Biblical interpretation is a human one. (i) The diffusion rate of
noble gases is sufficiently complex both theoretically and
experimentally that helium concentrations are unreliable for dating.
(ii) The granite examined appears to have contained biotite material
meaning that replacement processes have been active. (iii) The authors
fail to explain why there are so many cases of good concordances. (iv)
Even in diamond it is impossible to eliminate sources of C-14 from
contamination, microbial action and nuclear interactions.

3. It is amazing that anyone would postulate two temporary changes of a
physical constant (the strong coupling constant) on such flimsy
evidence. It is also amazing that this is supposed to happen in some
nuclei and not others.

4. (a) The RATE people cannot explain the heat removal needed so that
the earth did not melt – the process cannot be convection, conduction or
radiation. They appeal to possible help from Humphrey’s cosmological
argument, but what causes the redshift of starlight does not cool the
bound particles on earth.

(b) They cannot explain why Noah, his family and the animals on the ark
were not frizzled by the extraordinary nuclear radiation.

5. It is irresponsible for the RATE people to document a hope of a
future resolution and simultaneously claim to church lay people that it
they have a reliable conclusion. It is just as well that the authority
of the Bible does not depend on the claims of the RATE group!

I make a final comment. A Young-Earth Creationist position is coherent
when based on an appearance of age. It is also coherent when held with
acknowledged conflict with currently known science. But presenting the
young-earth position as being in accord with scientific knowledge is
reprehensible. It is the sort of thing that gives Christianity a bad
name among scientists who might otherwise be open to the claims of Christ.

*************************************************************************
Dick Fischer wrote:

>Hi Don, you wrote:
>
>
>>>He agreed that the RATE scientists have two major unsolved problems,
>>>
>involving heat and nuclear radiation.<<
>
>Like the Titanic met an obstacle in the North Sea. Did he start out by
>saying, "We have a theory totally disproved by the results obtained by our
>analysis which we are going to tell you about anyway because we can sell
>books and solicit donations and continue to support our ministry of
>misinformation." Did he say anything like that?
>
>BTW, you probably provided a far greater benefit with your handout. Good
>on
>ya! Can you email us a copy? I'd like to forward it the Southern
>Baptists.
>
>Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association
>Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
>www.genesisproclaimed.org
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>Behalf Of Don Nield
>Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 1:59 AM
>To: Paul
>Cc: asa@calvin.edu
>Subject: Re: [asa] DeYoung at Auckland
>
>Many thanks to Paul for his advice, which was in line with what I had in
>mind, and to Randy for an advance copy of the review of the RATE technical
>book that he has prepared for publication in PSCF. In my opinion this
>review is much better than anything that I came across on the web.
> I bought a copy of DeYoung's book from the Creation Ministries
> International (NZ) bookshop in Auckland. (Last year the Australian
> branch (and its NZ, SA and Canadian sections) of Answers in Genesis
> split off from the American branch to form Creation Ministries
> International. The American organization is now called Answers in
> Genesis -USA.)
>I prepared a single page (500 words) statement -- which happens to bear a
>striking resemblance to Randy's review!
>I got in touch by e-mail with the Director of Auckland Student Life.
>(Student Life is an offshoot from Campus Crusade for Christ -- it has been
>in existence for about 15 years.) I requested two or three minutes at the
>meeting to make an oral stament and permission to hand out my statement.
>The former was declined on the grounds that Student Life wanted to present
>a unified view to non-Christians, but after further negotiation the
>Director agreed to announce at the end of the meeting that I would be
>distributing a critique of Dr DeYoung's book. I invited him and DeYoung to
>coffee in our Staff Common Room after the meeting. I was told that DeYoung
>would have to leave soon after the meeting for a radio broadcast session.
>However, I was able to speak with him for about 20 minutes prior to the
>meeting. He agreed that the RATE scientists have two major unsolved
>problems, involving heat and nuclear radiation. He also conceded that some
>of his colleagues had gone further than he himself would about the
>application to the reliability of the Bible. He said that he was quite
>comfortable with his YEC position. He agreed that other Christians had
>other valid positions.
>The talk was a low key affair. DeYoung spent most of his time talking
>about C-14 and helium content of rocks. He did not mention accelerated
>nuclear decay. He mentioned Boyd's analysis of the Hebrew text of Genesis
>1. At the end of talk he answered a few questions from the audience. He
>smiled but gave no reply to a suggestion that he had incorrectly equated
>the hardness of rocks with their permeability. There were about 90 in the
>audience -- 90% were young. About 70 accepted a copy of my handout. I spent
>a useful hour with the Director, and he now has a copy of my booklet "God
>Created the Heavens and the Earth." And I now have a copy of "Thousands..
>not Billions" autographed by the author!
>Don
>
>
>Paul wrote:
>
>
>>Don wrote,
>>I have just received the following notice about a forthcoming meeting on
>>my own campus. I am seeking advice about what I should do about? (My
>>answers to the questions would be different
>>
>>*Tuesday 1 August,* 1.00-2.00pm,* Auckland University.*
>>Don't miss* Dr DeYoung B.S., M.S., Ph.D., Physics, M.Div.* and a member
>>of the Institute for Creation Research's* *RATE team of scientists,*
>>speak on their findings of* eight years of research.* Their goal was to
>>explore the age of the earth from a biblical perspective.
>>*Radioisotopes and the Age of The Earth, or RATE.
>>*Topic: 'Thousands...Not Billions'*>>
>>
>>For one thing you can go to answersincreation and get materials directly
>>opposing the RATE stuff and other parts of their nonsense.
>>(http://www.answersincreation.org/rate_index.htm)
>>Make copies of the most relevant materials, then put them on a table for
>>people to pick up. Bring your own table if they will not let you put your
>>materials on their table. You might also ask the organization sponsoring
>>this to let you speak to them sometime. One thing is sure, this is no time
>>to be shy.
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

-- 
Donald A. Nield
Associate Professor, Department of Engineering Science
University of Auckland
Private Bag 92019
Auckland, NEW ZEALAND
ph  +64 9 3737599 x87908
fax +64 9 3737468
Courier address: 70 Symonds Street, Room 235 or 305
d.nield@auckland.ac.nz
http://www.esc.auckland.ac.nz/People/Staff/dnie003/
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