Re: [asa] truth with love award

Hi, Mervin

Some replies to selected bits:

Anyway -- I have never read Collins, though I may have indirectly
> encountered him through one of Phillip Yancey's works (another author I
> WOULD nominate for "truth with love" as he lovingly criticizes and
> exhorts our Christian community from within) I had been impressed with
> what I was hearing about Collins on this list before, but now having
> seen a paragraph sample of Collins, I'm ready to go searching at the
> public library. Thank you, Iain.

I think Collins's book is too recent to be found in the public libraries
unless you get them to buy it. It's not expensive on Amazon, though.

>
>
> Here is my challenge to you, Vernon: are there "common ground
> factualities" that even many YECs would agree with today that serve as
> example pointers to the dangers of pitting rigid Bible interpretation
> against nature?

Nicodemus is a scriptural pointer about not taking things too literally.
This is probably a bit tangiential for what you meant, but it was part of my
own journey, so I'd like to share it now.

During the few weeks when, at a rather confused time in my life, I
considered myself a YEC, I found increasing anxiety about all the evidence
that was stacking up. It was in fact Vernon who introduced me to the ASA
list, after I had taken an interest in his Bible numerics. [ And I'd like
to add that despite my recent very public disagreement with Vernon on
YECism, I still think there is a definite phenomenon that ought to be
investigated there, and would be happy to find someone to discuss it
objectively with]. During the few weeks on the list, I was angered at the
derisive way Vernon was treated, although having recently had some of his
rhetoric aimed directly at me, I can understand people's frustration a bit
better! It's intensely aggravating to be hit with "Surely you agree ..." as
if to suggest that to differ would be absurd, when in fact you don't agree!

Anyway, all the bad feeling generated made me feel bloody-minded enough to
stick with YEC-ism. I thought "I don't care what those horrible people on
ASA say, I'm still going to believe the BIBLE" (I still do of course).
However, when I caught myself saying this, I knew I was falling into a trap
of self-deception, and that it wasn't a tenable position - I could either
shut out the clear evidence that refuted just about every YEC claim under
the sun, and thereby (literally I think) have a kind of psychosis that made
one blind to the obvious, or I could go with what I knew in my heart of
hearts what the science was telling me.

There remained one thorny problem. No death before the Fall. To accept
evolution and long ages, this key bit of doctrine was false & there was a
feeling of a slippery slope where the integrity of my faith was going to be
eroded.

It was about then, when on a long walk by myself, that I fell to thinking
about Nicodemus (did the Holy Spirit remind me gently?). So Nicodemus goes
for the absolute literal interpretation of "born again". "Go back into
your mother's womb and get born again? Eeeeuuch!" (Paraphrased, but I
think it is pretty funny anyway). Nicodemus is told it's not literal -
Christ wasn't referring to physical rebirth, but spiritual rebirth. So the
penny dropped, if it wasn't "that sort of birth" in being born again, it
didn't have to be that sort of death at the Fall. In fact arguably the
state of being "born again" reverses the effect of the Fall. And then of
course later in John 3:16 "Shall not perish but have everlasting life"
clearly doesn't mean we're not going to die physically.

I can tell you the relief was enormous when this thought came to me! I at
last knew that I didn't have to resort to self-delusion to keep hold of my
faith. It was like being let out of a cage.

What I might say about YEC now might seem harsh, but it's the only
alternative way I can state the condition, because I don't like the way the
ring-leaders are continually described as liars and charlatans, and only in
it for the money that sometimes happens on this list. Maybe some are (e.g.
Kent Hovind, though I understand AiG distanced themselves from him).

But I think if you're a clever scientist and also a YEC, then you are
probably just a lot further down the road that I went down when I realised
the warning signs. The human capacity for self-deception is pretty
phenomenal - perhaps we actually need it to survive, or else we'd probably
all sink into depression if we were too brutally honest. So I think you can
get to the state where you're so used to shutting out contrary evidence that
you don't even notice you're doing it. The hands clapped over ears and "I
don't care what those awful people are saying" response so ingrained that
it's virtually unconscious. This kind of faith is the one Richard Dawkins
describes when he says that faith is belief in the absence of evidence, in
fact in the teeth of evidence. That's the way I was headed, in the teeth of
all that was said on the ASA list! In a way I'd describe that as a form of
psychosis, or loss of touch with reality. One shouldn't judge such people
with harsh words, but attempt to reach out, as Collins does - first giving
credit for what is right about what they stand for.

BTW sadly I don't think my Nicodemus example is going to get through to any
YEC's. I met Andy McIntosh when I was a YEC, and then a few months back he
preached at our church (well ... harangued us to be more precise). I
exchanged a few emails with him before as I thought it only fair to warn him
that I wasn't a YEC any more. I shared the Nicodemus thing but it meant
nothing to him - he insisted (and the sermon rammed it down peoples throats)
that the Fall meant TWO sorts of death - physical and spiritual - came into
the world at the same time. After a few exchanges of emails, we agreed to
differ. The sermon angered and upset a lot of people, because he impled
that if you didn't accept his literal interpretation of Genesis 1-2 and the
fall that you might as well give up being a Christian and become an
atheist. He preached twice - I went to the earlier one. I gather the
vicar, who was completely taken aback by the narrowness of his approach,
asked him to tone the shrillness down a bit in the second sermon.

Iain

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Received on Sat Jul 29 14:47:52 2006