Re: [asa] Of motes and beams

George,

I was hoping that, together, and for the benefit of all, we might construct a true understanding of the modus operandi of our Living God as it directly concerns us and, indeed, everyone alive. Strangely, and sadly, this appears to be an area that you - Christian theologian, scientist and teacher though you be - have little wish to explore. For similar reasons no doubt, you shield evolution from the two simple tests that the Lord suggests his children apply to any philosophy or doctrine that claims their allegiance, thus:

(1) Test the fruits of that philosophy or doctrine before making it your own. (Mt.7:15-20).

On this basis - as I'm sure you must agree - evolution has an exceptionally poor track record. This alone, in my view, should be a major deterrent to all who accept Christ as the way, the truth, and the life.

[To those who will point to the many bad things perpetrated by the Church, past and present, let me say this: wherever, and whenever, the Lord's teachings have been properly applied - according to the Scriptures - great goodness and blessing have followed].

(2) We cannot serve two masters (Mt.6:24).

You are surely aware that evolution carries with it a subtle imperative. How else are we to explain, (a) man's enchantment with it and, (b) his stout (even fanatical) defence of it, when challenged? Undoubtedly, for you and, indeed, all TEs, it is the dominant master.

While these appear to be little more than reasonable suggestions for the Christian, they become firm expectations following the Lord's further observations: "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine, and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man, who built his house upon a rock...And everyone who hears these words of mine, and does not act upon them, will be like a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand." (Mt.7:24, 26 NASB).

Your abject failure in respect of these matters hardly sits well with words uttered recently on another thread, viz "Wisdom is identified preeminently with Christ himself..." If one really believes that, then shouldn't one respond by closely following the Lord's teaching?!

Shalom

Vernon

www.otherbiblecode.com

"Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name...And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil...' (Mt.6:9,13 NASB)."

"...And he (the serpent) said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said...?...And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done?... (Gn.3:1, 3:13 AV)."

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: George Murphy
  To: Vernon Jenkins ; Don Nield
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 12:10 AM
  Subject: Re: [asa] Of motes and beams

  My comments below are in red.

  Shalom
  George
  http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Vernon Jenkins
    To: George Murphy ; Don Nield
    Cc: asa@calvin.edu
    Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 6:09 PM
    Subject: Re: [asa] Of motes and beams

    George,

    I'm disappointed with your latest response under this heading on two counts:

    (1) You fail to address my claim that accepting Job 1:6-12, 2:1-6 as events that _actually happened_ makes sense of a number of 'problem' scriptural passages; as you may remember, I cited 1Sam.16:14, 19:9 in particular - but there are others, most famously the prayer request (offered by the Lord Jesus himself) that our heavenly Father "lead us not into temptation..." (Mt.6:13). Perhaps you are able to offer an alternative scenario which better accomodates these 'difficulties'. Alternatively, of course, you may consider they are all best _ignored_.

    You're right - I didn't address those points directly. I never intended to. What I intended to do was what I did: Refute the equation of "story" with "untrue" (see below) & point out that your argument against MN was wrong. MN is a statement about the range of applicability of science, not an assertion that everything can be explained in terms of natural processes.
        
    (2) I am unable to make sense of your opening sentence, "Your previous post implied (I use the word in the strict sense) that if biblical texts were 'stories' then they would be 'untrue'." Kindly indicate the statement which, to you, conveys this peculiar implication.

    From your post of 11 July: "However, when you state that "The passages are theological stories about Satan.", does that mean you believe them to be
    untrue? If so, are you not surprised that God has allowed them to appear in His Revealed Word?"

    Though you've posed this in the form of rhetorical questions, it seems pretty clear from the whole course of your argument that you do think "story" = "untrue" in this context. But I don't want to impute to you anything you don't believe. If you think that biblical texts (& Job in particular) could be "stories" & still be "true," please say so clearly. & if you don't, please state that clearly.
    George, if my thesis be true, and satanic deception be allowed free rein, then those deceived will know nothing about it - believing that MN, yet again, has delivered further scientific 'truth'.

    If Satan is so much in control of the world that all the apparent regularities which MN-based science claims to discern are really due to his operation then Satan is the real creator of the world in which we live. This is tantamount to heresy, Manichaeanism to be specific.

    So again Vernon, don't be coy. Do you think all the regularities that science thinks it discovers are really due to the workings of Satan? & it really is a kind of all or nothing matter. You can't just pick out the age of the earth or evolution as Satanic lies because the evidence for those things is so intertwined with a lot of other science.

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Mon Jul 17 17:03:41 2006