Re: same-sex marriage

What does this have to do with Christian faith and science?

Gordon Brown
Department of Mathematics
University of Colorado
Boulder, CO 80309-0395

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Janice Matchett wrote:

> At 08:53 PM 6/10/2006, Pim van Meurs wrote:
>
> >Just to show how poorly researched some of these
> >claims really are and how non-sequitur to the
> >discussion I would like to point out the following example:
>
> Janice wrote: @ Democrat, Socialist,
> Communist... The lines are blurring... by D. K. Zimmerman 07/16/01
>
> News reports filtered out of that burgeoning
> metropolis, Milwaukee, WI, this week of 27th Communist Party USA Convention.
>
> Two of the banners in the convention ballroom,
> "People and Nature Before Profits" and "End
> Police Brutality," suggest a strong resemblance
> between the party's leftist agenda and much of
> the Democrat Platform. Webb suggests the party's
> coalition-building with other groups is a sign of
> vitality. The problem is, the Soviet Union’s
> collapse and KGB revelations scattered its
> members to the four winds. In too many cases, the
> coalition being built is replete with former
> party members in groups such as the ACLU, the
> Sierra Club, and even entire states’ delegations to the Reform Party.
>
> "The American people will never knowingly adopt
> socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,'
> they will adopt every fragment of the socialist
> program, until one day America will be a
> socialist nation, without knowing how it
> happened." - Norman Thomas, former U. S. Socialist Presidential Candidate
>
> "We've got to ride the global warming issue. Even
> if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will
> be doing the right thing -- in terms of economic
> policy and environmental policy." - Timothy
> Wirth, former U. S. Senator (D-Colorado)
>
> "We share many things in common with the long
> history of the Communist Party and all those
> engaged in the fight for a decent life for
> working people." - Milwaukee Mayor John O.
> Norquist’s welcome letter to the
> communists. ... [snip] http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b5610ea406d.htm
>
> >Pim replies: "A statement issued Friday by Mike
> >Soika, Norquist's chief of staff, said the mayor
> >agreed to write a welcome letter for the group,
> >which is common for visiting conventions. He
> >said the letter was written by an unidentified
> >staffer and not reviewed by Norquist, who is on
> >a family vacation. He said Norquist "does not
> >endorse Communist ideology and condemns many
> >elements of Communist
> >history." http://www2.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul01/norq14071301a.asp
>
> @@ He got caught and then tried to
> backpedal. Milwaukee has a ___long history___
> of welcoming Communists, so his denial is
> laughable. Those who can be fooled will be fooled.
>
> "...Berger's most influential paper, however, was
> the Milwaukee Leader, established in 1911. The
> Leader, a popular Socialist daily, eventually
> became Berger's main organ for the expression of his opposition to World War I.
>
> The city in which the Leader became one of
> the most widely-circulated Socialist dailies was
> an ideal breeding ground for Victor Berger's
> socialism. For much of Milwaukee's history,
> Americans have perceived the city as a place
> where "if you want the mob to lend you an ear,
> shout beer, socialism, and Deutschland." This
> tripartite stereotype of Milwaukee residents as
> lovers of lager, Marx, and the Fatherland was not
> an entirely false description during Victor
> Berger's reign as the city's Socialist party boss. .....
>
> The influence of German culture and ideas
> extended into Milwaukee politics. Though not all
> German-Americans were Socialists, many
> German-Americans, especially immigrants who had
> fled Germany after the failed revolutions of
> 1848, were "enthusiastic partisans of the new
> communist and socialist doctrines." The
> dominance of industry and the presence of a large
> working-class population accustomed to the ideas
> of German socialist philosophies also helped the
> Socialists gain a political strength in Milwaukee
> unrivaled in other American cities of similar
> size. .." More: http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/bios/html/berger2.html
>
> Wisconsin Historical Society - Milwaukee Sewer
> Socialism
> http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/tp-043/?action=more_essay
>
> Milwaukee - The only major city to elect an
> admitted socialist
> mayor(s) Details:
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1544058/posts?page=9#9
>
> Since you have chosen to be an apologist for
> Norquist, I assume you disagree with Zimmerman's
> main point about how the lines are blurring
> between Democrats, Socialists, and
> Communists. How aren't they blurring then?
>
> I also noticed that you totally ignored it when I
> debunked your assertion that I must be joking
> in response to what I said about today's
> conservatives being yesterday's classic liberals,
> and today's liberals (progressives) are merely
> yesterdays Commie/Marxist/Socialists --
> omnipotent busibodies attempting to use fascist
> tactics on the rest of us under a benign-sounding
> phrase, "political correctness" - with the
> approval of their own conscience because it's for
> our own good, of course. Gag.
>
> Pim continues: "notice also
>
> >"The four-paragraph letter welcomes convention
> >delegates, proclaims the working people of
> >Milwaukee "have a long proud history in the
> >defense of democracy, labor rights, civil rights
> >and peace" and adds "if we, the people, work
> >together, we can win the struggle to better the
> >lives of ordinary working people."
> >
> >Defense of democracy, labor rights, civil rights
> >and peace. Seems nothing wrong with such goals
> >and actually seem to be matching what Christians
> >should be striving to achieve. At least Janice's
> >response helps support my original claim about
> >liberalism and the conservatives. If the glove don't fit...
>
> @@ My response helped support your
> claims???? The delusion you display is breathtaking.
>
> Not only that, but, are you so naive as not to
> know that every despot / totalitarian mentality
> who ever lived claimed to "care about the little
> guy" and made the same sorts of "how can we fool
> 'em again today" claims?. Only utopians who
> choose to delude themselves into believing that
> people are "basically good" could ever fall for that BS.
>
> >Pim continued:
> >And finally
> >
> >"Well Norman had it mostly right. The exception
> >is that it no longer requires liberalism to push
> >forth the socialist agenda in this country.
> >Today both parties are embracing this failed
> >form of governance. The biggest difference today
> >is that the Democrat Party is striving for these
> >goals at break-neck speed while the Republicans
> >choose a more incremental
> >approach." http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/6412.html :-)
>
> @@ Correction: Only the Rockefeller Republicans
> (RINOS) like McCain are willing to join the
> Democrat party in their folly. You apparently
> didn't read what I wrote before, when I went out
> of my way to distance my wing of the party from
> theirs. Guess I'll have to post my comments
> again, since you missed them the first time:
>
> Among the heros of Reagan Conservatives --
> (excluding RINOS ie: Rockefeller Republicans) --
> is Friedrich August von
> Hayek
> (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/May_8>May 8,
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/1899>1899 in
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Vienna>Vienna
> –
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/March_23>March
> 23, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/1992>1992
> in
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Freiburg>Freiburg)
> was an
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Austria>Austrian
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Economist>economist
> and
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Political_philosophy>political
> philosopher, noted for his defense of
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Liberal_democracy>liberal
> democracy and
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Free_market>free-market
> capitalism against
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Socialism>socialist
> and
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Collectivism>collectivist
> thought in the mid-20th century. Widely regarded
> as one of the most influential members of the
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Austrian_School>Austrian
> School of economics, he also made significant
> contributions in the fields of
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Jurisprudence>jurisprudence
> and
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Cognitive_science>cognitive
> science. He shared the
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/1974>1974
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Bank_of_Sweden_Prize_in_Economic_Sciences_in_Memory_of_Alfred_Nobel>Nobel
> Memorial Prize in Economics with ideological
> rival
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Gunnar_Myrdal>Gunnar
> Myrdal and in 1991 he received the
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Presidential_Medal_of_Freedom>Presidential
> Medal of Freedom, one of the two highest civilian
> awards in the United States, “for a lifetime of looking beyond the horizon”.
>
> Among the heros of the Socialists - (includes
> RINOS) - is John Maynard Keynes .... In the
> 1930s Hayek enjoyed a considerable reputation as
> a leading economic theorist but his models were
> challenged by followers of
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes>John
> Maynard Keynes who argued for more active
> government intervention in economic affairs. The
> debate between the two schools of thought remains
> unresolved today, with Hayek's position gaining
> currency since the late 1970s. .. [Ronald Reagan
> era begins] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_von_Hayek
>
> Scholar
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Leonard_Liggio>Leonard
> Liggio ...says, "Classical liberalism is
> liberalism, but the current collectivists have
> captured that designation in the United States.
> Happily they did not capture it in Europe, and
> were glad enough to call themselves socialists.
> But no one in America wants to be called
> socialist and admit what they are." He believes
> that this is why liberalism means something
> different in Europe than in America. Proponents
> of the
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Austrian_School>Austrian
> School and the
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Chicago_School>Chicago
> School (sometimes called neo-classical
> economists), such as
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Milton_Friedman>Milton
> Friedman,
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises>Ludwig
> von Mises and
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Friedrich_von_Hayek>Friedrich
> von Hayek, also reject claims that modern
> liberalism represents a continuous development
> from classical liberalism. According to Friedman
> Their view is that beginning in the late
> nineteenth century, and especially after 1930 in
> the United States, the term liberalism came to be
> associated with a very different emphasis,
> particularly in economic policy. It came to be
> associated with a readiness to rely primarily on
> the state rather than on private arrangements to
> achieve objectives regarded as desirable. Their
> catchwords became welfare and equality rather than freedom.
> Neo-classical economists instead see themselves
> as the true inheritors of classical liberalism.
> For example, Hayek argued that he was not a
> conservative because he was a liberal; and had
> refused to give up that label to modern
> usurpers. [Today's "Conservatives"] Much
> more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
>
> >Pim continues:
> >And since we are quote mining Norman Thomas here are a few more
> >
> >**The difference between Democrats and
> >Republicans is: Democrats have accepted some
> >ideas of Socialism cheerfully, while Republicans have accepted them reluctantly
>
> @@ On the contrary. My wing of the Republican
> party will NEVER accept such ideas. The RINOS
> days are numbered. You can take it to the bank.
> My latest post to that effect from
> today: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1647420/posts?page=25#25
>
> ~ Janice
>
>
>
Received on Mon Jun 12 11:02:54 2006