ASA - June 2006: Re: same-sex marriage

From: Janice Matchett <janmatch@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat Jun 10 2006 - 12:43:00 EDT

At 02:33 PM 6/9/2006, Pim van Meurs wrote:

>Janice Matchett <janmatch@earthlink.net> wrote:
>At 12:45 PM 6/9/2006, Pim van Meurs wrote:
>
>>Liberal (a. Not limited to or by established,
>>traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian
>>attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
>>b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new
>>ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas
>>and behavior of others; broad-minded.) with its
>>roots in latin (Middle English, generous, from Old French, from Latin l
>>[]
>>ber
>>[]
>>lis, from l
>>[]
>>ber, free.)
>><http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal
>@ I have news for you. Today's conservatives
>are yesterday's classic liberals
>Today's liberals (who run from the word they
>originally co-opted to describe themselves by
>co-opting another word - now calling themselves
>"progressives") are merely yesterday's
>Marxist/socialists/commies. The "political
>correctness" they attempt to enforce on everyone
>is just fascism by another name. ~ Janice
>...Her unjustified name calling shows all the
>evidence that contradicts her own statement.
>Thanks Janice, I too love irony. .. Janice must be joking. ... ~ Pim

@@ Joking??? Hardly. I try never to voice an
opinion where I can't provide valid grounds for it.

And if you're offended at Liberals being equated
with Communists/Socialists and view it as
"name-calling", take it up with those on your
side. Are you reeeeeally so naive/uninformed as
to think that I came up with the idea?? All I
need to do is quote your like-minded friends.

Under [1] below you will find
this: "...Neo-classical economists instead see
themselves as the true inheritors of classical
liberalism. For example, Hayek argued that he was
not a conservative because he was a liberal; and
had refused to give up that label to modern
usurpers. [Today's "Conservatives"]

Under [2] below you will find this: "The
American people will never knowingly adopt
socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,'
they will adopt every fragment of the socialist
program, until one day America will be a
socialist nation, without knowing how it
happened." - Norman Thomas, former U. S.
Socialist Presidential Candidate at the 27th
Communist Party USA Convention in July 2001.

Under [3] below you'll find a link to a book
Liberals hate: The Road to Serfdom by
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Friedrich_A._Hayek>Friedrich
A. Hayek he wrote: "The principle that the end
justifies the means is in individualist ethics
regarded as the denial of all morals. In
collectivist ethics it becomes necessarily the
supreme rule." [Proved true by the comments above plus more in [2] below]

~ Janice .. Here's more, if you dare: The
Historical Roots of Political
Correctness http://www.newtotalitarians.com/PsychicIronCagePartII.html

Among the heros of the Socialists - (includes
RINOS) - is John Maynard Keynes .... In the
1930s Hayek enjoyed a considerable reputation as
a leading economic theorist but his models were
challenged by followers of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes>John
Maynard Keynes who argued for more active
government intervention in economic affairs. The
debate between the two schools of thought remains
unresolved today, with Hayek's position gaining
currency since the late 1970s. .. [Ronald Reagan
era begins] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_von_Hayek

Scholar
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Leonard_Liggio>Leonard
Liggio ...says, "Classical liberalism is
liberalism, but the current collectivists have
captured that designation in the United States.
Happily they did not capture it in Europe, and
were glad enough to call themselves socialists.
But no one in America wants to be called
socialist and admit what they are." He believes
that this is why liberalism means something
different in Europe than in America. Proponents
of the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Austrian_School>Austrian
School and the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Chicago_School>Chicago
School (sometimes called neo-classical
economists), such as
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Milton_Friedman>Milton
Friedman,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises>Ludwig
von Mises and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Friedrich_von_Hayek>Friedrich
von Hayek, also reject claims that modern
liberalism represents a continuous development
from classical liberalism. According to Friedman
Their view is that beginning in the late
nineteenth century, and especially after 1930 in
the United States, the term liberalism came to be
associated with a very different emphasis,
particularly in economic policy. It came to be
associated with a readiness to rely primarily on
the state rather than on private arrangements to
achieve objectives regarded as desirable. Their
catchwords became welfare and equality rather than freedom.
Neo-classical economists instead see themselves
as the true inheritors of classical liberalism.
For example, Hayek argued that he was not a
conservative because he was a liberal; and had
refused to give up that label to modern
usurpers. [Today's "Conservatives"] Much
more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

[2] Democrat, Socialist, Communist... The lines
are blurring... by D. K. Zimmerman 07/16/01

News reports filtered out of that burgeoning
metropolis, Milwaukee, WI, this week of 27th Communist Party USA Convention.

....Participants provided typically ridiculous
statements in their vain attempts for relevance. ...

"The American people will never knowingly adopt
socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,'
they will adopt every fragment of the socialist
program, until one day America will be a
socialist nation, without knowing how it
happened." - Norman Thomas, former U. S. Socialist Presidential Candidate

"We've got to ride the global warming issue. Even
if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will
be doing the right thing -- in terms of economic
policy and environmental policy." - Timothy
Wirth, former U. S. Senator (D-Colorado)

"We share many things in common with the long
history of the Communist Party and all those
engaged in the fight for a decent life for
working people." - Milwaukee Mayor John O.
Norquist’s welcome letter to the communists. ...

The Journal-Sentinel piece quotes Chairman Sam
Webb as “passionately advocat[ing] an end to ‘the
right-wing corporate agenda’…Webb [says] the
policies of the Bush administration and the
growing chasm between rich and poor make a party
that champions workers more relevant than ever.
‘There is a growing inequality in the
distribution of income in this country, where we
have a few with vast quantities of wealth and
tens of millions fighting to get by,’ Webb said.
‘In those circumstances, people tend to look for
more progressive, more radical, more leftist
solutions to the problems they face.’"

Two of the banners in the convention ballroom,
"People and Nature Before Profits" and "End
Police Brutality," suggest a strong resemblance
between the party's leftist agenda and much of
the Democrat Platform. Webb suggests the party's
coalition-building with other groups is a sign of
vitality. The problem is, the Soviet Union’s
collapse and KGB revelations scattered its
members to the four winds. In too many cases, the
coalition being built is replete with former
party members in groups such as the ACLU, the
Sierra Club, and even entire states’ delegations to the Reform Party.

The Journal-Sentinel suggests that “leftists and
Communists part ways…at the party's ultimate
goal: to take the nation's industries out of the
hands of corporations and under the control of
the people. Webb sees a kind of ‘socialism based
on our own democratic traditions.’" So the
Chairman of the Communist Party seeks democratic
socialism, with the “people” controlling industries?

In the Northwest, over a thousand family farms in
a certain valley are facing ruin. Over a
generation ago, the government enticed folks to
buy and develop irrigated farmlands by promising
them perpetual water. Today, with an endangered
fish species reportedly in the balance, the
federal government is reneging in order to
maintain certain water levels for this fish in an
environmental pogrom. Clinton attempted to
socialize the medical industry and hijack
Microsoft. Governor Davis, D- California, is
attempting to beat energy companies into
submission. Most Californians believe Davis’s
propaganda blaming utility companies for his
actions. These are exemplars of gradual socialism.

In a larger sense, are the Democrats absorbing
the Communists or vice versa? Those in Wisconsin
are not our primary concern. The ones not in
Wisconsin, but belonging to teachers’ unions,
campus faculties, the NAACP, and environmental
groups are the ones to worry about. The
pernicious slide into tyrannical socialism is
gathering steam. More: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b5610ea406d.htm

* * * *

[3] The Road to Serfdom is a book written by the
winner of the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Economics>Nobel
Memorial Prize in Economics
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Friedrich_A._Hayek>Friedrich
A. Hayek and originally published by Routledge
Press in March
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/1944>1944 in
the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/United_Kingdom>UK
and then by the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/University_of_Chicago>University
of Chicago in September 1944. ...There exist
translations of the book to about 20 languages.
The book is dedicated to "The
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Socialism>socialists
of all
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Political_Party>parties".
The introduction to the 50th anniversary edition
is written by another Nobel prize winner,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Milton_Friedman>Milton Friedman.

Hayek's central thesis is that all collectivist
societies, from Hitler's National Socialism to
Stalin's communism, lead logically and inevitably
to tyranny. Hayek's main argument is that
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Planned_economy>central
planning must necessarily reduce individuals'
economic freedom to sell products and services
and form businesses. Hayek believes that
replacing trade and business formation with
central planning will fail in its economic goals,
but that such failure will be perceived by the
public as an absence of sufficient power by the
state to implement an otherwise good idea. Such a
perception will lead the public to vote more
power to the state and eventually cause
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Totalitarianism>totalitarianism.
Finally, Hayek states that countries such as the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Soviet_Union>Soviet
Union and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Nazi_Germany>Nazi
Germany had already gone down the "road to
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Serfdom>serfdom",
and that various
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Democracy>democratic
nations are being led down the same road. In "The
Road to Serfdom" he wrote: "The principle that
the end justifies the means is in individualist
ethics regarded as the denial of all morals. In
collectivist ethics it becomes necessarily the supreme rule."

Hayek discusses
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Individualism>individualism,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Collectivism>collectivism
and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Planned_economy>economic
control. The book examines the relationship
between individual
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Liberty>liberty
and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Government>government
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Authority>authority,
and argues that granting government central
planning control of the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Economy>economy
inevitably leads to economic chaos and disaster.

However, as Hayek says "It is important not to
confuse opposition against this kind of planning
with a dogmatic laissez-faire attitude" "The
Road to Serfdom" mentions the provision or
regulation of sign posts, roads, pollution and
noise from factory, and the harmful side-effects
of deforestation, for example, as issues that
cannot be left purely to the unregulated market
price mechanism. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom
Received on Sat Jun 10 12:43:30 2006

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