Re: Conflicts and confrontation

I am happy to accept your cautionary/correctionary advice -- at least in that I
should not have used the word "most" since that implies statistical certainty
that I don't have (& such may be hard to come by -- Was your objection based on
statistics?) My impressions regarding any negative impacts of evolutionary
thought are anecdotal, and from my personal acquaintances only, and perhaps
your objections are likewise based on your experience of counter-examples,
which is fine and needed. My bias simply betrays my immersion in YEC thinking,
which I expect & hope to have corrected here.

Rich, thanks for getting your two bits in as well. I didn't have the time at
the moment to do both your links justice, but skimming your book review
of "Darwin's Cathedral" gave me the gist I needed. An "evangelical" atheist
friend of mine once sent me a similar essay that detailed the evolutionary
development of Christianity. My friend was obviously very impressed with the,
(to his mind, "faith-refuting"), explanations for Christian faith and he hoped
to impress me in likewise fashion to peek behind the curtain and become
enlightened about the great Oz. While I didn't necessarily disagree with the
evolutionary explanations, I didn't find in them a compelling reason to think
Christian faith was ill-founded or false either. But you go beyond complacency
towards such approaches and actually embrace it as a positive aspect, and that
does interest me. My own exposure to these thoughts mostly involves reading
authors such as D. Dennett. Hence, perhaps, my over-familiarity with negative
faith impact.

--merv

Quoting Robert Schneider <rjschn39@bellsouth.net>:

> Merv, you write:
>
> >But have any of you, because of your
> > evolutionary beliefs, found your faith enhanced -- built up?
>
> Bob's reply:
> Yes, my faith in God as creator has been enhanced by my acceptance of
> biological evolution. There are certain facts about nature that make the
> creation even more amazing to me. One is that I am interconnected and
> genetically related to all species, living and extinct, throughout the
> history of life. Theologically, this makes my sense of stewardship even
> greater. Another is the enormously varied nature of life, all of the
> millions of species past and present, their ecological relationships and
> their relationships over time, facts that make it impossible for me to
> believe in separate creation, and leave me in awe of the creative power of
> the Trinity. God's subtle and hidden interaction with all of life, God's
> pleasure in the winged hawk or the snorting horse, reflecting God's pleasure
>
> in creation generally, these things enhance my faith in the God who made me.
>
> Let me add that I accepted biological evolution at an early age, but the
> more I learn about it the more I am amazed at the various aspects of
> evolution that have been discovered or identified in the past two decades.
>
> The following words end part II of the Episcopal _Catechism of Creation_. I
> had a hand in writing them and they express my own thoughts:
>
> If God creates through evolutionary processes, how may this awareness
> enhance my spiritual life?
>
>
>
> The God of evolution is the biblical God, subtle and gracious, who interacts
>
> with and rejoices in the enormous variety, diversity, and beauty of this
> evolving creation. When we contemplate the tremendous gift of freedom God
> has bestowed upon the creation, and how the Holy Spirit preserves in
> covenantal faithfulness the physical laws, powers and processes that enable
> such variety and beauty, these thoughts may move our hearts to a deeper
> admiration, awe and gratitude for God's works. They may inspire a curiosity
>
> to know God's creation more deeply, celebrate it with thanksgiving, and
> devote ourselves to caring for it
>
> You also write:
>
> >But the fact seems to remain
> > that for most TEs their faith 'tolerates' and 'accomodates' evolution at
> > best --
> > is weakened and even destoryed by it at worst.
>
> May I caution you against making a generalization about this? I would
> challenge that it is a fact, because of the fact that every person I know
> involved in the science/religion dialogue, or who is a Christian in science,
>
> who accepts evolution, whether they call themselves a TE or not, does not
> merely "tolerate" or "accomodate" evolution--I mean the science, of course,
> not the philosophy (people too often confuse the two and YECs and most IDers
>
> refuse to make any distinction)--but rather "integrate" it into their
> religious world view. I confess that my range of contacts is limited, but I
> know of no TE whose faith has been "weakened" or "destroyed." I know of some
>
> who would say that the _content_ of their faith has changed, not their faith
>
> itself (I distinguish between "faith in" and "faith about"). Their
> understanding of divine action has undergone a transformation.
>
> Bob
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <mrb22667@kansas.net>
> To: <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Conflicts and confrontation
>
>
> > It seems YEC organizations are the ones seeking to be careful about this
> > (doctrinal rejection of evolution -- or even heterodox variations on
> > creationism) and will probably be adding it to their official faith
> > statements.
> > Non-YECs are also guilty of it in a less formal sense. "Shunning" can go
> > a
> > long way, even on a listserve like this one. I just finished reading "The
> > Creationists", and was fascinated to know how the ASA itself has been
> > 'Shunner'
> > as well as 'Shunee' at various points of its history.
> >
> > I am still trying to develop good and sensitive answers to YEC concerns
> > about
> > where 'evolutionary philosophy' will lead a person. Science aside, it
> > seems to
> > me their concerns remain well-founded. I've heard of a person's amazement
>
> > at
> > the 'order and provision' of creation inspiring them to seek out faith or
> > enhancing their existing faith. But have any of you, because of your
> > evolutionary beliefs, found your faith enhanced -- built up? I think I
> > remember
> > some of the "Perspectives" Essays authored by many on this list come
> > closest to
> > expressing a positive faith-evolution association. But the fact seems to
> > remain
> > that for most TEs their faith 'tolerates' and 'accomodates' evolution at
> > best --
> > is weakened and even destoryed by it at worst. Numbers himself seems to
> > be an
> > unfortunate example of this. Until Non-YECs are able to really address
> > this
> > concern and give it good answer, I don't think YECs will be very
> > sympathetic
> > with the ASA cause, no matter how scientifically compelling it is.
> >
> > While I also dislike the exclusionary mindsets of various groups, Randy, I
>
> > can
> > understand why they seek a community sense of 'purity'. Many creationist
> > groups
> > have sought that holy grail of a 'unified front' to present to the world,
> > only
> > to find themselves confounded by their own internal disagreements. Thanks
>
> > for
> > picking up on this.
> >
> > --merv
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting Randy Isaac <randyisaac@adelphia.net>:
> >
> >> Merv,
> >> A couple of weeks ago you posted an excellent candid comment and
> >> question
> >> about YEC positions in the environment in which we work. You rightly
> >> pointed
> >> out that it's much easier to take a stand on a belief when such a stand
> >> has
> >> little or no influence on our lives, such as jeopardizing our jobs. All
> >> of
> >> us have read and admired the martyrs chronicled in works such as "The
> >> Book of
> >> Martyrs" but few of us have faced a choice between life or belief. ok,
> >> let's
> >> not take it that far. Just in the situation where we might have strong
> >> anti-YEC beliefs while working in a YEC organization, or the inverse.
> >>
> >> I was thinking about your note this past week while attending IBM's
> >> annual corporate technology recognition event. It occurred to me that
> >> the
> >> company's technology folks represented an incredible diversity of beliefs
>
> >> but
> >> it still managed to achieve an amazing degree of coherence and
> >> cooperation.
> >> Perhaps the secret was to focus on unity of that which the group needed
> >> while
> >> ensuring that the diversity in all other areas was respected and did not
> >> lead
> >> to confrontation. In other words, we all shared a commitment to the
> >> technology goals of the company while honoring the various religious and
> >> ethnic beliefs in the group. I had good conversations with my Muslim and
> >> Jewish friends and we talked about organizations comparable to ASA in
> >> their
> >> religions. The system worked because we kept our religious beliefs from
> >> becoming conflicts. They were not germane to the function of the group.
> >> However, had the differences been critical to the technology objectives
> >> of
> >> the group, the conflicts would have had to be resolved.
> >>
> >> The analogy is that in ASA and in our churches, the message we need
> >> to
> >> emphasize is the unity of that which makes us Christian, our belief in
> >> Christ
> >> and his salvation. Beyond that we ought to be respectful of each other
> >> and
> >> avoid confrontation. That ideal falls apart when a church or school
> >> decides
> >> to make a position such as YEC a fundamental part of a statement of
> >> faith.
> >> Then the core has shifted from a central focus on Christ to a focus on a
> >> specific set of ideas. At that point confrontation has been initiated
> >> and it
> >> would be very difficult to stay within that organization.
> >>
> >> Net: hard as it may be, we don't need to engage in a crusade to root
>
> >> out
> >> YECism. It isn't central to Christianity. Yet when it becomes a part of
>
> >> the
> >> organizational mandate or is presented to the body of Christ as a
> >> critical
> >> tenet of Christianity, we must be ready to stand for integrity in our
> >> beliefs.
> >>
> >> Randy
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Received on Thu Jun 1 23:10:30 2006