Re: Blind scorpions (or fish) as proof of evolution?

Mike,

Even Dick's "first cause" language here is troubling. I think most of
us would argue that God is involved in the moment by moment
operations of the Creation. We use the words providence and
sustenance to describe such actions. Creaturely being and action is
meaningful in some sort of concurrence between God and the creature.
(These are all sub-categories of systematic theology's doctrine of
providence and have been discussed by theologians for centuries--
unfortunately, most participants in the current debate seriously
neglect these theological issues.)

Thus, in principle, there is no possibility of taking God out of the
equation. There may be no gain in explicitly referring to Him--that's
how much of the world appears to operate--but He's always there
involved in some way in every event. The presence or absence of God's
action in any particular "natural" event is not necessarily
detectable by scientific methods and ultimately becomes a faith
claim. Our claim that God is involved in the moment by moment
operations of the Creation is fundamentally religious, just as the
Naturalist's claim that He is not is fundamentally religious.

TG

On May 31, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Mike Tharp wrote:

> Hi Dick,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the reply. I mean no disrespect, but wouldn’t it
> also be wise to understand the arguments that creationists, such as
> AIG, use before claiming they’re incorrect? Though I lean toward
> a creationist viewpoint, I confess that there are some things I
> find troubling, just as I do with evolution. But neither side
> seems to be informed about (or even willing to consider) the
> opposing arguments, resulting in a dearth of any edifying
> discussion. Each side merely “preaches to the choir.”
>
>
>
> I’m curious as to your statement that God is “the first cause of
> all events.” By this, do you mean that God created and then simply
> allowed everything to evolve from non-living matter? Or did God
> create the first life form and then allow life to evolve from that
> point forward? If such evolution was not directed by God, did it
> arise by mere chance? Though I’m sure there are many different
> views among the members of ASA, I’m curious as to the general
> consensus regarding this issue.
>
>
>
> In Christ,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path” (Psalm
> 119:105).
>
>
>
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-
> owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Dick Fischer
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 3:58 PM
> To: 'Mike Tharp'; ASA
> Subject: RE: Blind scorpions (or fish) as proof of evolution?
>
>
>
> Hi Mike, you wrote:
>
>
>
> Answers in Genesis indicate that they “delight in using blind cave
> fish as examples of 'downhill' or 'information-losing' mutations
> causing 'devolution'” (http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v23/
> i1/eldredge.asp).
>
>
>
> Devolution is permitted, evolution shunned. Sounds like just the
> inconsistency I would expect from AIG. Actually, evolution has no
> upward direction, it just causes change. Nature selects what
> works. In a world filled with light, nature selects sight. In a
> world of darkness, sight has no natural advantage. I would suggest
> AIG find out how evolution works before pontificating on it.
>
>
>
> The metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly is something
> that causes me to question the feasibility of evolution. How can
> random mutations and natural selection account for this? I’m not
> saying it can’t, but only that I don’t understand how it can. How
> does one speculate that this metamorphosis process arose? Of
> course, if evolution was directed by God, it could certainly be
> possible. But the whole idea is to take God out of the equation,
> correct?
>
>
>
> Nobody I know on this list takes “God out of the equation.” The
> idea is that God need not take sporadic, intermittent action to
> cause new species to come into existence or for novel features to
> appear on creatures of an existing species. As the first cause of
> all events, God does not directly cause all events.
>
>
>
> Dick Fischer
>
> Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association
>
> Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
>
> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>
>

________________
Terry M. Gray, Ph.D.
Computer Support Scientist
Chemistry Department
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
(o) 970-491-7003 (f) 970-491-1801
Received on Thu Jun 1 01:07:33 2006