Re: A profound disturbance found in Yak butter.

This seems to me confused as to what evidence can be. I once had a
professor who carried the front of the old Lucky Strike pack to
illustrate his point that evidence cannot simply be what is publicly
repeatable. A negative after image is strictly confined to the
experiencing individual but only a fool will claim that there is no such
thing because I can't show you mine and you can't show me yours. So I
contend that the work of the Spirit IS evidence. J. B. Phillips noted
that, as he was translating the scriptures, he sometimes had the feeling
that he was working on the wiring with the mains still on. I have the
testimony of others whose lives changed through their trust in Christ. I
know that those who do not want to recognize the deity can find a
nonreligious explanation--only the religious one has so much greater
effect. Coulson's work in prisons has less recidivism than other types of
programs.
Dave

On Sat, 27 May 2006 22:59:30 EDT Philtill@aol.com writes:
In a message dated 5/27/2006 10:19:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dopderbeck@gmail.com writes:
But the gift and assurance of faith ultimately comes from the Holy Spirit
and not from evidence.
I think that this is the only epistemology that Scripture affirms. I
think that the picture given us all through the Bible is that God meets
us personally, speaks to us personally, and proves Himself to be in our
lives personally. There is never an equation or a scientific validation
available to prove the faith -- we either rely on God being there for us
and then He really shows up and meets us, or we have nothing.
Apologetics is the icing on the cake, but not the cake itself. The cake
is entirely the experience of interacting with God personally and
discovering that He really is there. My own faith is weak when I don't
pray and I don't have much experience of God meeting me and surprising me
often. But when I have been really sanctified in my heart and really
sought Him with all my heart, then He has always been there. That's the
real reason I believe -- not science or history or logic. And I am not
so naive as to believe that other religions don't have experience as one
of their key arguments, too, and so I have struggled to evaluate whether
I am only fooling myself. But in the end I must conclude that God really
has interacted with me, and that other religions may have real
experiences (of some sort) too and that this does not contradict
Christianity. God really has done remarkable things in my life, in
answering prayers in fantastic ways, and in speaking to me directly and
through other people. He really has revealed Himself to me, despite the
fact that I am a bugger ball most of the time.

It is a dirty game we are playing, being forced to decide whether to
believe in Christ. Our souls depend on the outcome, and it seems we are
given so little to be able to play the game. Truthfully, it is not a
fair game at all. The Biblical perspective is that we really don't
deserve to be granted a fair game. We are not neutral a priori. We are
enemies of God, not his friends, unless (and only insofar as) He changes
us. It is precisely because of our sinfulness that the game seems dirty
and unfair to us. It is not a shortcoming in God or in the epistemology
he makes available to us. We must know that we are rotten in our
sinfulness and therefore really don't deserve a "fair shake" or nothing
else makes sense. So that is my epistemology. I think this is the only
Biblical epistemology, and if we are looking for scientific or historical
proof to the neglect of actually seeking and experiencing the person of
God directly and immediately, as someone who doesn't deserve it, then we
will always be unhappy with the lack of clear proof. This is not a
Wittgensteinian game, because in that game God doesn't actually interact
with the participants.

I can't explain adequately to my children why I take them to the doctor's
office to get a shot. Their lack of maturity prevents them from having a
fair epistemology to understand why I would do this to them. They are
just subjected to the shot and they cry and feel like it is unfair
because I demand that it should happen. How much less should we sinners
be given a fair epistemology in our dealings with God, when the Bible
says that we are not merely immature but truly enemies of God. Even as
Christians, we have done nothing to deserve a fair epistemology.

As a scientist I find that it is so very easy to lose sight of this fact
-- that biblically, if we are searching for proof of God with all our
heart, then we are going down the wrong trail. We are supposed to search
for God, not proof of God, with all our heart.

God bless!
Phil Metzger
Received on Sun May 28 00:53:22 2006