Re: Dembski theodicy

David, I didn't see or get your reply until reading it in George's
response here. I'm not disputing that the wrestling match is as old
as sin itself. But there is such a contrast (I think) between our
"privileged" unpriviliged positions. I'm happy to listen in on the
historical debate among you who are much more historically knowledgeable
of examples or counterexamples. But I'm primarily just even looking at
the Bible to fuel this thought. Not only did they not try to "absolve
God" as George phrases it below -- they repeatedly give God "credit" for
the worst atrocities as well as the good. And that seems to bother them
not at all like it bothers so many of us. I won't even cite the
passages, they are so plentiful. God's hand is still raised... Even
now his wrath isn't turned away... He brings armies from the
north... You've all read it before. It's everywhere.

If my comment on navel gazing was laying it on a bit thick, I'll blame
it on hasty posting. Be assured it's a self-critique more than
anything. My own dirty laundry probably doesn't need public airing.
I appreciate the overall aura of professionalism exhibited in this list
which is a great influence on me.

--merv

George Murphy wrote:

> I think Forde had Christian contexts in mind rather than gnostic
> speculations. (Admittedly there have been plenty of the latter in
> Christian contexts!) & there's a significant difference between
> trying to figure out why some specific bad thing (e.g., the fall of
> Rome) happened & justifying God's creation of, & activity (or lack
> thereof) in, the kind of world we inhabit.
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/ <http://web.raex.com/%7Egmurphy/>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* David Opderbeck <mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> *To:* George Murphy <mailto:gmurphy@raex.com>
> *Cc:* Mervin Bitikofer <mailto:mrb22667@kansas.net> ;
> asa@calvin.edu <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 12, 2006 11:24 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Dembski theodicy
>
> /It is remarkable that there were so few attempts to construct
> theodicies prior to the 18th century./
>
> Maybe, although I'm not sure this description is historically
> accurate. After all, Augustine's theodicy is significant, and
> arguably before him heresies such as gnosticism were efforts to
> deal with the problem of evil -- as were many aspects of the Greek
> philosophies before them. I'd suspect the attention paid to
> theodicy in the modern era has more to do with the challenges
> posed to epistemology based on authority posed by the Enlightenment.
>
> On 5/12/06, George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com
> <mailto:gmurphy@raex.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > People have indeed "fretted about the origins of evil" for a
> long time but that doesn't necessarily lead to construction of
> theodicies. Job doesn't do anything of the sort (though his
> friends do). A note of Gerhard Forde's in his On Being a
> Theologian of the Cross (Eerdmans, 1997), pp. 84-85 is of interest
> here.
> >
> > "It is remarkable that there were so few attempts to construct
> theodicies prior to the 18th century. Certainly there was no
> shortage of suffering and disaster. Life was 'nasty, brutish, and
> short.' In Luther's own day the black death had decimated the
> population of Europe and still threatened. Villages and towns
> lived in constant dread of fire and natural disasters, and so
> forth. Yet attempts to absolve God were deemed foolish. Is it
> not curious that only when life seems to be easier do thinkers set
> out to 'justify' God. Is it perhaps that when we think ourselves
> to have done so well we question God for being so inept? Perhaps
> it is as Hannah Arendt remarks, 'When men could no longer praise
> they turned their greatest conceptual efforts to justifying God
> and His Creation in theodicies.' (Hannah Arendt, The Life of the
> Mind, vol.2, Willing [New York, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1977],
> 97)."
> >
> >
> > Shalom
> > George
> > http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/ <http://web.raex.com/%7Egmurphy/>
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: David Opderbeck
> >
> > To: Mervin Bitikofer
> > Cc: asa@calvin.edu <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: Dembski theodicy
> >
> >
> >
> > It crosses my mind that the fuss over the origins of evil is the
> luxury
> > of a society who isn't busy about daily survival – a society
> sold on the
> > notion that pain doesn't have to be a part of this world,
> courtesies of
> > pharmaceuticals, new technology, etc.
> >
> > Merv, I think I'd suggest exactly the opposite. People have
> fretted about the origins of evil for as long as we have written
> records, and probably before. If anything, our relative comforts
> in the industrialized North probably cause us to think less about
> these things. Most of us aren't confronted with death and
> suffering every day. Imagine how much more immediate the problem
> of pain was before things like basic dental care. And imagine how
> much more immediate the problem of pain is even today for the
> majority of the world's population that doesn't share the relative
> affluence of the North.
> >
> > Back to our philosophical navel gazing. It surely is productive
> in its own way.
> >
> > Ok -- it's fair enough to point out that endless discussions
> about things like natural evil and theodicy, after a while, become
> little more than endless discussions. Surely many of us -- surely
> I -- sometimes could do with powering off the computer and walking
> down to the local shelter to give a cup of cold water to someone
> in need. I don't think, though, that all of this is just navel
> gazing.
> >
> > If we're going to reframe the Creation-Fall-Redemption narrative
> to make the Creation part less idyllic than traditionally
> imagined, IMHO, it's vital that we explain how that affects the
> rest of the narrative. People who know real suffering -- and even
> those of us in the affluent North come to know it at some time or
> another -- understand that "something is wrong" and long for
> Redemption. If our only answer is "nothing is wrong, this is just
> the natural order of things," what have we to offer (or hope for)
> by way of Redemption? What meaning does the Christian story have
> if it no longer affirms that the world is not how it should be,
> that the very creation groans for the fulfillment of the Kingdom
> of God? So, I think these are vital, core questions for us to
> hash out.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/11/06, Mervin Bitikofer <mrb22667@kansas.net
> <mailto:mrb22667@kansas.net>> wrote:
> > > Here's a brief comment offered in the confidence that it will be
> > > entirely ignored, (ignored in the name of job security for
> pedagogues).
> > > It crosses my mind that the fuss over the origins of evil is
> the luxury
> > > of a society who isn't busy about daily survival – a society
> sold on the
> > > notion that pain doesn't have to be a part of this world,
> courtesies of
> > > pharmaceuticals, new technology, etc. This includes many of us
> in the
> > > first world nations, and probably the wealthy kings and
> philosophers of
> > > previous ages. I'm certainly not saying such things weren't
> debated long
> > > ago. The psalmists and Job fussed quite a bit over such
> problems as well.
> > >
> > > Paul asks in I Cor. 1:20 "Where is the wise man? …" Later
> commenting
> > > that God chose the foolish things of this world to shame the
> wise; and
> > > so on. Maybe it is only the 'wise' that get tied in knots over
> where
> > > evil came from. Not to belittle the anguished wails of the
> suffering in
> > > the world. But I'll bet we'd be surprised how many of them
> would give an
> > > incredulous look at any of us who suggested to them that they
> let their
> > > circumstances remodel their theology. Theirs would not be the
> look of
> > > ignorance, but of amazement that someone could so obviously
> get the cart
> > > before the horse.
> > >
> > > But enough of this interlude. Back to our philosophical navel
> gazing. It
> > > surely is productive in its own way.
> > >
> > > --merv
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Received on Fri May 12 23:29:14 2006