Re: Fw: Alliance for Science

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 01:16:22 -0700 "Matt \"Fritz\" Bergin"
<fritziematt@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "D. F. Siemens, Jr." <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
> >
> > On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:30:07 -0700 "Matt \"Fritz\" Bergin"
> > <fritziematt@yahoo.com> writes:
> >>
> >> > Morality isn't just the laws of the land. There are things
> that
> >> are
> >> > considered immoral that aren't against the law. I don't kill
> or
> >> steal
> >> > because its wrong not because I will be punished for it by
> >> society. People
> >> > break laws and cause war and death because that's human
> nature.
> >> >
> > You're right that morality is not just legal prohibitions and
> > requirements. There are many actions that are either commended or
> > penalized that are not covered by laws. Indeed, legal enactments
> are a
> > rather blunt instrument relative to the fine distinctions that may
> be
> > made morally.
> >
> > Some people break laws because they think they can get away with
> the act.
> > Some years back I had opportunity to talk to a chap who was in
> charge of
> > training at a penal institution. He noted that many of the
> inmates
> > recognized that they had made a mistake that allowed them to be
> caught.
> > This did not persuade them to give up crime. They expected to
> continue
> > their criminal life after serving the sentence, being careful not
> to make
> > the mistake that sent them to jail. He also noted that it was
> very
> > difficult to have an effective training program with the inmates
> because
> > most had low intelligence. The reason, he claimed, was that it was
> mainly
> > the stupid ones that got caught.
>
> Some criminals do work into their criminal activities ways to not
> get caught
> but I don't see how that shows that people aren't criminals because
> of the
> consequences. There are a few different ideas on how to deal with
> crime and
> only one deals with deterence. There is specific deterrence which is
>
> designed to stop the actual person from doing the crime. There is
> also
> general deterrence which deals with the whole population. The others
> are
> retribution (revenge), rehabilitation which sees criminals as people
> who
> don't know how to live in society and they need to be taught. Also
> it looks
> like age is a major factor in crime where a lot of violent crime
> happens in
> youth and then drops off later in life. Alcohol and drugs can be
> another
> facilitating factor for crime. I don't think that there is one
> reason why
> people are criminals or not criminals. Getting caught can be a
> factor for
> some but most people who want to be criminals will be. It all
> depends on if
> we are talking about career criminals, violent criminals, or some
> guy who
> kills his wife in the heat of passion because he caught her
> cheating.
>
I think it's obvious that criminality and immorality have many
interconnected causes--to the extent the term applies to human activity.
Fear of consequences is one factor. I recall a converted robber who said
that he never loaded his gun for fear of killing somebody. I recall a
classmate who told me that he refrained from some activities for fear of
the consequences which, at the time, were not legal penalties. On the
other hand, teens take chances because, according to some research I
recall, they do not properly incorporate consequences into their
thinking. So they engage in dangerous behavior--drinking excessively,
driving drunk, racing, etc. Additionally, a factor in delinquency is
being raised in a single-parent household.

You indicate the effect of circumstances. Of course emotions change
matters. They may be obvious, like extreme anger. They may be more
subtle. I recall the psych prof noting that taking to teens individually,
they are acting rationally; but a group of teens will do ridiculous
things and wonder why afterwards. It seems that "peer pressure" doesn't
always read as pressure.

> >
> > As to human nature, the situation is more complex. There are
> psychopaths.
> > Some of these are very tenderhearted when it comes to animals. But
> there
> > are other individuals who are very sensitive to human hurt. It's
> not
> > possible to paint all with the same brush.
>
>
> I disagree that psychopaths can be tenderhearted or sensitive. They
> may be
> able to appear that way because thats what they believe they should
> do in
> that situation. I don't know how much we really know about
> psychopaths but
> everything that I have read would suggest that they don't have any
> real
> feelings for anything. They know what they are doing but lack any
> emotion or
> feelings regarding their actions or other people. They can appear to
> be
> normal caring people though. There's a good book on psychopaths
> called
> Without Concience: The Disturbing World of Psychopaths Among Us by
> Dr.
> Robert D. Hare. Also if you want to get into sex related psychopaths
> the
> book Sex-Related Homicide and Death Investigation by Vernon J.
> Gerberth is
> good if you can read stuff about serial killers and rapists.
> Anyway...this
> and crime is more my area of expertise although I'm still a forensic
> science
> student so I'm sure I will learn more along the way.
>
My comment was based on recalling that one of the Nazi bigwigs wept over
a dog his car hit, while he was involved in sending human beings to the
gas chambers. I also think of some animal activists who hold that humans
are expendable, but other animals are not. Those who drove spikes into
trees, endangering saw mill operators, put trees above people. But I may
not be matching symptoms to the official definition of "psychopath."

> This is all I have time for right now...I've been debating all night
> and it
> my last night of spring break! I just wanted to mention the books on
>
> psychopaths and some ideas on crime. I will leave the last word to
> everyone
> else.
>
> ~Matt
>
My best wishes as you put your nose to the grindstone again.
Dave
Received on Sun Mar 12 22:54:03 2006