RE: Fw: The Left Hand of God or "is God a socialist"

  -----Original Message-----
  From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
Behalf Of Pim van Meurs
  Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 02:48
  To: asa@calvin.edu
  Subject: Re: Fw: The Left Hand of God or "is God a socialist"

  "Matt \"Fritz\" Bergin" <fritziematt@yahoo.com> wrote:
    I don't see any Biblical reason to have jubilee and I don't see how
capitalism is destructive to faith. People are free to give what they want
to others or the church in a capitalist society. If you want to redistribute
your wealth to other people then by all means go ahead.

    PvM: Jubilee seems an interesting biblical concept. I guess we are free
to accept and reject biblical teachings whenever appropriate? Why is
capitalism destructive to faith? Because it focuses on materialism, which
places more emphasis on possessions than on the religious relevance of
Christmas for instance.
    [Don Perrett]
    Sorry Pim wrong again. You are describing consumerism not capitalism.
Lets try to use words that mean what they say. The US has become a
consumerist nation and that is bad. It may in fact be evil. When people
focus on their wants they loose sight of their needs and they can cause
themselves and others to suffer. If they focus on the needs only and the
needs of others, then all of Gods people will have their needs met. But
again this is NOT capitalism. The fact that I put my money together with
someone elses in order to make the pie grow so that I can then help the
people who don't have pie is not evil by any stretch of your imagination.
Capitalism leads to saving, and sometimes hording. One is good and one is
bad. But like all things in life. It is not what you do, it is why you do
it. In moderation and balance, wealth, resources, politics, etc can be used
to create a society which perhaps God had intended. But going way out in
left field, or right field, and taking all the resources and then hording
them from the people just so that you have control over them does not work
to the purposes of God. The only way to ensure that the resources and power
are not corrupted and reside only with a few is to ensure that each
individual has the power within them to make a conscious decision to control
the flow of the resources.

    Capitalism doesn't mean that no one can help or gets help. There are
also other ways of giving besides money. Maybe you can give your time
working to make a quilt for the homeless or work at a place that collects
stuff that people want to give to the poor that they don't need anymore. My
church has a program for giving your old vehicles to be fixed up and given
to single parents and those that need vehicles.

    PvM: Those are good programs although they do not really address the
underlying problem. Still charity is a good start.

    There are also many different food shelters and places that give poor
people the things they need. I don't see why with all of this that we need
to redistribute wealth.

    PvM: To those who have, the idea of having to redistribute wealth may
seem 'scary' but look at it from the jubilee perspective and things may look
quite differently.

    The other problem is that many poor people have lots of problems that
giving them money will not solve like drug addictions, alcohol problems, no
schooling, mental problems, or bad choices that they made.

    PvM: Sure but those are often more symptoms rather than causes.
Inequity, poor schooling, poverty all add to their problems. Drugs, mental
problems etc are seldomly direct causes.

    [Don Perrett]
    So just curious, have you ever been poor? Or is this conclusion based
on your perception of poverty? I have been poor. Welfare certainly came in
handy when I was a kid, but without the proper incentives and regulations,
it can create a welfare mentality where people either become comfortable
being handed out or give up since the way up is harder than staying in the
gutter. I've lived it first hand. The only out for me was a swift kick in
the ...... when I woke up and decided to join the Army at 17. Had it not
been for the military, I would have ended up like many of my friends who
chose to stay in the welfare system, in prison or dead.

    It probably seems like the problem is just money but its far more than
that and I don't see how these socialist utopian solutions will solve the
problem or help the people in need. These people need a more personal and
real answers to their problems. Like in the case of the drug addict giving
them money will not help them because they will just use it to further their
addiction. I think we need to be more aware of their individual problems
which a collectivism doesn't recognize.

    PvM: What if addiction is a symptom of poverty and redistribution could
help alleviate these problems? Giving money to a drug addict is not going to
help but giving opportunities to someone who may become a drug addict may be
a solution.

    [Don Perrett]
    And what if the person isn't poor? Never heard of a rich man on
cocaine? I personal know a woman who makes $400-500 a day selling drugs
just to support her own habit. She could wake up one day and still sell but
quit the habit and then in a year she'd be able to buy a house and car cash
and maybe even an education to get out of it all together. But her
addiction keeps her in it. If she were just given money, even at
Massachusettes welfare rates she would still continue to sell and use. It
would just mean that she would have more to use. She is happy with what she
is doing. She didn't come from a poor family like I did. Neither did she
come from a rich family, but like so many, made the mistake as a youth or
starting and hasn't stopped since.

    I always thought that Santa Claus was based on a real guy (Saint Nick)
who gave gold to poor families...I don't remember the details. If Santa is a
tradition that recognizes that then I see no problem with it. There are a
lot of people that give in the holiday season to things like Toys for Tots
and the Salvation Army. The whole point of Christmas and gifts is to give
(as a way of recognizing God's gift to us)...but someone has to receive what
you are giving...if thats materialistic then I don't know what to say.

    Indeed, the history of Saint Nick is hardly as materialistic as the
holiday it has turned into. Look at the advertising, the hype, the amount of
money, the pressure on parents to deliver... Christmas has turned into a
major materialistic holiday where the meaning of Christmas or Santa Claus
have been totally lost.

    What exactly is the religious right concentrating on anyway?
    PvM: Good question... What should they be concentrating on is an even
better one.
    Is the religious right just a pawn in the hands of the political right?
Should the religious ri ght abandon its foundations for political short term
gain?
Received on Fri Mar 10 07:53:04 2006