RE: Fw: The Left Hand of God or "is God a socialist"

But capitalism is the gathering together of wealth or resources in order for
prosperity to occur. How is that different than what Christ did, or
religious groups do today. When they collect tithing and then expand their
missionaries, churches are then able to gather even more money from the
converted and help the needy in the process. How is that different than a
group of people getting together to start a company and then over time
expand it with the profits they made, then paying taxes and making donations
that help those in need? Obviously the churches are full of evil
capitalists. Socialism relies in principle upon the idea that what is good
for the "society itself", not the people, is what is best. Christ took
issue with the Jews of his time on some of the same things the Soviets did
in our time. Treatment of handicaps and minorities. Having people of power
and wealth not held accountable by the very society from which they gained
their power, much like monarchies. In socialism there is no way to change
any problems and mistreatments of the people. In a free capitalist society,
under governmental regulation, the people have the power to take down any
corporation, or country for that matter, that does not serve the public.
South African apartheid ended as a result of the capitalist monetary
pressures of people with their wallets closed for business from SA. The
USSR fail for many reasons, most of which were monetary. Socialism leads to
poverty and when the time comes those in power will ensure that they do not
go without and the rest of the society goes without as was the case in
Russia, Iraq, Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, etc.

As for communism: NO

Communal yes, but in no way shape or form is Christ communist. Picture
this - If a small community (same root word) works together to ensure that
they thrive in a fair and open way so that no one person suffers, and
several communities (counties or whatever title you prefer) work together to
ensure that each of their communities thrive in a fair and open way so that
no one community suffers, and several of these counties work together to
ensure that each of their counties thrive in a fair and open way s that no
one county or community suffers, ..............................
Then in a global way if each nation can put aside their differences and work
together to ensure that each of their
states/provinces/counties/communities/families thrive in a fair and open way
so that no one human being suffers then you have a communal system. When
you take away the power of the community and give it to the federal level
then how can you call it communal or even communism. The idea that you can
have one ultra large commune working together with only one head is not only
risky but insane. Only Christ himself can be that head. No one man can be
head of the world. Imagine an army that only has one general and no other
junior officers or NCOs to lead the troops. This would be ineffective.
That's why the US military is what it is. It is not just the technology but
the idea that each and every soldier is an army in and of himself. If the
general is killed then the colonel steps in and so on down the line until
the commander is a private if need be. A Russian general back in world war
I said that if they ever had to fight the US they would likely loose for
that reason alone. Seperate but equal rights of individuals, cities,
counties, states, nations are what ensure the freedom of the people and
their rights to an equal share of the wealth and resources.

Lets hope you respond this time.

Don Perrett

  -----Original Message-----
  From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
Behalf Of Pim van Meurs
  Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 01:51
  To: asa@calvin.edu
  Subject: Re: Fw: The Left Hand of God or "is God a socialist"

  So perhaps it's more like communism where the concept of the state has
withered away. Either way, how come that the jubilee is somehow a concept
lost to us Christians?
  I like it how you 'interpret' the gospel to support private property but
you are missing the point. I am not arguing against private property, just
that the bible teaches a timely redistribution of such property.
  Communist or socialist, God hardly seems to be a capitalist so why are the
religious right submitting themselves to the policies of the political right
which seem to be quite destructive to faith (capitalism seems extremely
materialistic). Look what happened in the last few years... Is this what we
Christians should be proud of? I am not sure.

  Pim

  Janice Matchett <janmatch@earthlink.net> wrote:
    At 12:59 AM 3/7/2006, Matt \"Fritz\" Bergin wr ote:

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Matt "Fritz" Bergin
      To: Pim van Meurs
      Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 10:54 PM
      Subject: Re: The Left Hand of God or "is God a socialist"

      I don't see how Jesus could be said to support any type of economic
theory by reading the Bible besides that we should give to the poor and help
each other out when we see someone in need. I think this is a far more
meaningful way to help others. I'm not even sure what you mean by socialism
since there are so many different types its hard to keep track. Looking at
the website that you gave this looks like either a cult based on a few
verses in the Bible or a really bad way to try to convince the religious
that socialism is Biblical. I would have to say that this part of the top of
the page "We know of similar Jubilee movements which feel the need to
overpower existing churches and restructure them along an Old Testament
pattern. At times it means using deceit and force to take over the property
to redistribute the wealth in a socialist system" I don't really see deciet
and force as something that Jesus taught but maybe you can point me to the
versus that support this.

       ~Matt

    @ Welcome to the list. Your observations are very astute.

    The sort of socialism that is Scriptural is the form that is commonly
practiced on a small scale within families, within churches, and other
organizations. It is always going to be a voluntary sharing of resources.
The Bible teaches that the church and the family should care for the poor
rather than the state.

    8th Commandment: You shall not steal. This is a guarantee of private
property.

    10th Commandment: You shall not covet. Again, a guarantee of priva te
property.

    Acts 5: Barnabas sellls a piece of property and brought the money to
the Apostles.

    Ananias and Saphira decided to do the same - except they sold a
property - kept some of the money back - and lied about how much they had
been paid.

    Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy
Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? While it remained,
was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own power?' "

    There you go! An apostolic confirmation of the right of private
property. Not only the means of production, but also the results of that
production were in Ananias' and Saphira's power, not in the power or hands
of the state or the church.

    Proudhon , the French socialist said, "Property is theft."

    But the commandment forbidding theft teaches the right of private
property and is in complete contradiction to socialist concepts.

    ~ Janice

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Pim van Meurs

        To: asa@calvin.edu

        Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:43 PM

        Subject: The Left Hand of God or "is God a socialist"

        I listened to a radio program today with Lerner, author of "the Left
hand of God". What occurred to me is the irony of the political right being
the vanguards of religion when it is capitalism itself which undermines much
of religion and faith.

        A good example mentioned was Christmas, and while the right laments
that the secular leftists are causing the demise of this great holiday, it
seems far more likely that the materialistic nature of the Santa Claus event
is what really undermines the religious traditions of Christmas.

        The more I think about it the m ore I come to realize that Jesus was
quite a socialist in his days.

        And note how God in Leviticus seems to support the redistribution of
wealth

        And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times
seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee
forty and nine years. Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of jubile [sic] to
sound on the tenth day of the sev enth month, in the day of atonement shall
ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

        And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty
throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a
jubile unto you. ...

        -- Leviticus 25: 8-10 (KJV)

        See http://www.piney.com/JubileJewish.html for an interesting
viewpoint on this. I wonder why the religious right is not focusing on these
as pects of the Bible?

        <quote>Let us look at the Bible's "Jubilee program" in more detail.
It is rooted in a sense of sacred time, sacred cycles of work-time and
rest-time that are defined partly by the earth and partly by society. These
cycles (on the model of Sabbath rest and contemplation, celebration and
material sharing on the seventh day) are sha ped by treating the seventh
year and the fiftieth year (the year after the seventh seventh year) as a
special time.

        Every seventh year, all debts are cancelled. The land is not
subjected to organized cultivation or harvest; whatever freely grows from it
may in that year be freely gathered by any family for its own food. What has
been stored before is shared.

        In the fiftieth year, the land rests again, and every family returns
to the equal share of productive land that it was allotted when
Israelitesociety began. The poor become equal, the rich give up the extra
wealth they had accumula ted.

        And all this is done not by a central government's taxation or
police power, but by the direct action of each family, each clan, each tribe
in its own region.</quote>

        These are exciting issues for me to contemplate. Seems that it's
time to return religious faith to wher e it would find a much better home.
Given the policies of the right, I wonder if this is the place for us
Christians to find shelter?

        http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth-topics/jubilee.htm
Received on Wed Mar 8 13:28:15 2006