Re: Living and Worshipping in the Real World

Iain

You have a serious problem which is very difficult to deal with without inflaming matters. This confirms what I have long said that nearly 10% of CofE clergy are YEC or sympathetic. Part of the problem is a particular interpretation of the Bible typified by Paul Blackham and Oakhill Theol Coll seminary which tries to do interpretation in a vacuum.

As it is C of E McIntosh must have permission from Bishop Richard Harries to preach. Harries is virulently anti-YEC. The trouble is that you have no team rector at present so the vicar doesn't have that concern. I wonder what other members of the Team would say?

Somehow the Vicar needs to be challenged.

Now for McIntosh who is doing research on the combustion aspects of the Bombardier beetle at Leeds University (which is a good univ). I have not met him, but his book Genesis for Today is horrific. Some of the more biblical stuff is OK but his appendices on "science" are typical YEC fare. He has a large number of mistakes, which reflect either total scientific incompetence, or an unwillingness to look at other views or as usual possible dishonesty.(p186-7 seems to point to the third alternative.) I cannot accept that a professor of any science with a Ph D and possibly a D.Sc can be so incompetent (please note that in the UK most univ teachers are lecturers and not profs) when he looks at the basis of another science especially as the basics of geology are straightforward. If he cant understand the science then he should shut up. (Note my contributions to the mathematical discussions on this list. My limit of maths WAS elementary partial differentiation and so I haven't a clue.) Having been member of several local geological societies with professional and lay members (those with no geological training) I have found that the lay members have picked up a good grasp of basic geology. Some even gave lectures in front of professionals and were very wise in the field. At times these are people with no science beyond 16, so if they can do it why not Prof McIntosh?

I am of course questioning McIntosh's integrity and honesty, but I mean to.

The problem is that many in the church simply would not understand the arguments on the science. Also some will think that a good Christian prof must have got it right and thus you are on the way for a classic YEC-induced division in a church.

I would suggest you challenge the vicar and if he does not cancel write a letter of complaint to Bishop Harries. As a member of the church you are entitled to and he must deal with it.

Hope this helps

Michael

PS I was laughed at in the 70s when I said YEC would be a problem in the Church of England

----- Original Message -----
  From: Iain Strachan
  To: David Opderbeck
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 6:59 AM
  Subject: Re: Living and Worshipping in the Real World

  David,

  Looks like I may be about to experience the same as you are. After 23 years in an evangelical church in Abingdon UK with no hint of YEC, I noticed from the newsletter and sermon sheet that Prof. Andy McIntosh, a prominent YEC has been invited in February. The newsheet advertised a question and answer session he was giving on the Saturday, to be followed by the sermon on Sunday. The note, which was headed "Don't miss this!", said it was to "challenge" our thinking about creation. Depends whether it means to challenge you to think it through, or whether it means to say you're wrong to accept evolution. Several scientists within the church are concerned and saddened by this development, which I guess is at the behest of the Vicar. It is an awkward situation for me - for a while at a difficult time in my life, I also dabbled on the fringes of YEC-ism, and have met Andy personally, so he probably thinks I'm a YEC & doesn't realise I'm now "batting for the other side". I don't know what the best thing to do is, but I'd appreciate everyone's prayers!

  Iain

  On 1/23/06, David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com> wrote:
    I'm wondering if there are others on the list who go to "typical" evangelical-type churches, and how you handle the dissonance between what you see and hear at church concerning faith-science issues and what you think about such issues. I noticed some brochures for an AIG seminar on my church's bulletin board today and it made me feel ill. In the past, Ken Hamm did a seminar at my church, and the Senior Pastor is a fan. I've spoken with him about this and there's a big enough tent to allow me to be involved in leadership and such despite my "old earth" views. Yet, most of the leadership (at least those few who think about this stuff) accepts YEC, and I'm sure the K-12 school we have at the church promotes YEC (I send my kids to the public school). I love my church and have a long history of many years of service there. I wouldn't say that the church as a whole is militantly YEC or something like that; it's not something you would even ordinarily hear about in the course of a typical Sunday, though occasionally someone offers a Sunday School classes that eaches YEC. Yet, as is the case in evangelical churches and in the evangelical subculture all around the U.S., YEC is always there beneath the surface. I just wonder if others have stories of how they've navigated these waters.

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  After the game, the King and the pawn go back in the same box.

  - Italian Proverb
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Received on Mon Jan 23 06:13:16 2006