RE: Signs of Scientism

Actually I was the one who wrote that, and I should have specified that my
example implies time travel: Suppose we could travel through time and found
ourselves at the house in Cana where Jesus turned the water into wine,
immediately following the wedding (but after everyone who knew what had
happened had left)

David and others are of course quite correct that there were no direct
witnesses to the resurrection. However, the women and later several of the
disciples came to the empty tomb fairly soon after it had happened, and they
knew that Jesus had been dead, had been placed in the tomb, and the stone
rolled over the entrance. And they met Jesus Himself. Pretty strong evidence.

--- Tjalle T Vandergraaf <ttveiv@mts.net> wrote:

> Yes, I know that there were no bottles at that time and that amphorae were
> not intended for long-term storage (but they kept the contents cool). My
> response, somewhat tongue in cheek) was to David who wrote, "Suppose for
> example we ome to the house where the wedding at Cana was held and find some
> of the wine that Jesus made from water. I presume it would look, smell and
> taste like any other wine -- no discernable difference from ordinary wine."
> To me, this whole issue is a moot point: if we were to find any wine in
> 2006, we would doubt its authenticity; if we had been around in ~30 AD we
> would not have had the equipment to test the wine other than to taste it.
> The Biblical record shows that the wine passed the taste test. Good enough
> for me! Whether one believes that the molecular structure of the various
> components in that wine passed muster (I believe they did) or whether one
> believes that this was a case of wishful thinking and/or mass delusion (I
> don't think so), the main point is that the result showed the power of Jesus
> and that he is the Christ.
>
>
>
> The Resurrection is a totally different miracle; not that it was more
> difficult for God to raise Jesus than to turn water into wine, but because
> it is intrinsic to our salvation [1 Cor. 15]. The evidence of the
> Resurrection was good enough for the disciples.
>
>
>
> Chuck Vandergraaf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:49 PM
> To: ttveiv@mts.net
> Cc: williamehamiltonjr@yahoo.com; dopderbeck@gmail.com; gmurphy@raex.com;
> pimvanmeurs@yahoo.com; asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: Signs of Scientism
>
>
>
> Seems to me this confuses what might be discovered now and what might have
> been available to someone at the time. But there were no bottled wines two
> millennia ago. Scripture talks of wineskins, and archeologists have
> discovered amphorae used to ship wine. Both are too porous to preserve
> liquid for a great length of time. Consequently all we can possibly have is
> the record in John 2. So if anyone offers you a bottle of wine from that
> made at Cana, have him arrested for fraud.
>
>
>
> What about at the time? One could interview the MC, who would probably only
> know that they were running short of wine and then had plenty of better
> quality. But he'd likely be very confused that the wine was in the water
> containers rather than in skins, with no skins around to account for the
> ~300 liters of wine--at least six skins' worth. One could interview the
> servants who filled the containers with water and took out wine. One could
> check around town to find out how many wineskins members of the family had
> purchased, each perhaps holding 55 liters (that's litres for our British
> friends like Michael), and how many had been consumed at various times
> during the festivities.
>
>
>
> As for the resurrection, when Paul wrote his noted chapter, there were those
> who had been in Jerusalem at the time and could have refuted him. There was
> the effect on the followers of Jesus, scared and hiding to fearlessly
> proclaiming--even willing to die rather than recanting. They sure persuaded
> a lot of people. This is not proof, but clearly evidence.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:52:09 -0600 "Tjalle T Vandergraaf" <ttveiv@mts.net>
> writes:
>
> As to the wine at Cana, if wine were found this year, believers would claim
> that this was evidence of the power of Christ. Non-believers and sceptics
> would argue that somebody had fiddled with the evidence. (what protocols
> were used to preserve the sample and what is the effect of aging on wine?)
> If the wine had been sealed in bottles with an authorized signature, there
> would be a line up of tasters and, if it still tasted like good wine, there
> would be demands for C-14 and O isotope ratio testing. Remember the fuss
> over the Shroud of Turin.
>
>

Bill Hamilton
William E. Hamilton, Jr., Ph.D.
586.986.1474 (work) 248.652.4148 (home) 248.303.8651 (mobile)
"...If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom 8:31

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Received on Fri Jan 20 08:51:57 2006