Re: Cross & ID (was Re: Fwd: Judge Jones sided with the Discovery Institute and ruled against the Dove...)

At 01:13 PM 1/2/2006, David Opderbeck wrote:

"... it strikes me initially that you're taking a
very strongly Calvinistic stance on faith and
knowledge. Is that right? I would take a more
moderated stance on the the first chapters of
Romans, to say the people do in fact know of God
through general revelation, but that they willfully refuse to obey him. .."

### America's Framers were steeped in
Calvinistic principles and based our Constitution
and laws on them. Scroll almost 1/2 way down to
"The Emory Report" regarding our patent laws and
Constitution for more on that here: http://www.freerepublic.com/~matchettpi/ .

In addition, this is the orthodox Calvinistic
(not hyper-Calvinistic) teaching on general revelation:

[1] Human beings cannot suppress something that they don't already know.

[2] Human beings cannot exchange something that they don't have.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2335

[huge snip] Excerpt:

"...people suppress (katecovntwn, katechonto n)
or hinder the truth ( ajlhvqeia, ale theia) by
their unrighteousness (ajdikiva, adikia).

Here “unrighteousness” is not so much a general
reference to the way in which they suppress the
truth, but a reference to the sinful acts
themselves which are used to hold the truth from one’s sight.

Nothing could be more futile than to think that
we can extinguish or destroy the truth through
the means of sin. In the end, all we end up doing is confirming the truth.

But what truth do they suppress? Undoubtedly it
refers to the truth about God, i.e., his power,
authority, and the fact that we are accountable to him as Creator (1:19-20).

1:19-20 The word because (diovti, dioti) should
be understood as explaining why God’s wrath is
leveled against all the ungodliness of men who
suppress the truth by unrighteous acts. It is
because what can be known about God has been
plainly revealed to them so that they are without
excuse when they deny to God his existence and
divine nature. In other words, God has so created
man and placed him within creation that for man
to deny His existence, power, and divine nature
is to commit a crime worthy of punishment, even
death, as Paul says in 1:32. God’s punishment is
just, according to Paul, because such a denial
requires the endless suppression of “mountains”
of evidence to the contrary (cf. Ps 19). Such
people must be living with a profound and
irrational deception, to attempt to make this
great exchange, that is, to attempt to deny the existence of God.

The phrase what can be known about God (toV
gnwstoVn tou` qeou`, to gno ston tou theou) is
literally “the knowledge of God.” It is obvious
from the whole tenor of the passage that the
knowledge here is personal, but not saving
knowledge of God (cf. 1:21, 32). It is probably
the knowledge that God has implanted in us,
connected to the Imago Dei (perhaps conscience),
and which is sparked or brought to memory through
the evidence of creation. Once again, the
suppression of this “knowledge” invites the wrath
of God for it leaves man without excuse.

1:21-23 Verses 21-23 begin with for (gavr, dioti)
and give an explanation as to why men are without
excuse. Even though people knew God in terms of
his existence, power, and divine nature, they did
not acknowledge him, nor did they give thanks to
him or for him. Rather, having suppressed the
knowledge of God, they have become futile in
their thoughts (ejmataiwvqhsan ejn toi~"
dialogismoi~" aujtw~n, emataio the san en tois dialogimois).

The term “futile” (the verb and especially the
noun) is connected to idolatry in the Greek Old
Testament (LXX; 2 Sam 7:15; Jer 2:5) and this is
probably the background underlying Paul’s
thinking here. Therefore, to suppress the
knowledge of God is to engage in the futility of
idolatry. It is, in short, to give oneself to
"nothing," a non-entity, since an idol is in reality "nothing."

The extent of their futility is clearly evident
in that they exchange God himself for images of
reptiles, four-footed animals, birds, and even
human beings (v. 23). While idols can reduce the
demand on a guilty conscience, they cannot save,
as God repeatedly warns (Isa 41:9-10, 21-24;
44:6-23, etc.). Idolatry is the replacement of
God, and true knowledge of him, with any other,
de facto inferior, object of worship.

The ironic thing about all this is that people
arrogantly annex for themselves the claim
(favskonte", phaskontes) of wisdom when they
replace the worship of God who is immortal for
the worship of his creation which is mortal.26 In
reality they have become fools ( ejmwravnqhsan,
emo ranthe san [cf. 1 Cor 1:18-25]), lovers who
will not stay at home, worshippers of something
less than even themselves. Is it any wonder that
Paul refers to their hearts as senseless
(ajsuvneto", asunetos) and darkened (ejskotivsqh,
eskotisthe ) and Isaiah calls them deluded (44:20)?

In 1:18-23 we have seen the basis for God's wrath
on the Gentiles and any other person who acts
accordingly. In short, people suppress the
obvious knowledge of God in creation­a fact which
places them under his wrath. In 1:24-32 we will
see how he has carried out his wrath against
people who suppress his existence, power, and divine nature.

1:24-25 The expression God gave them (parevdwken
aujtouV" oJ qeov", paredo ken autous ho theos)
over means that the process envisioned in 1:18-32
is not simply the natural course of events but an
ongoing history directed by a sovereign God who
makes decisions which affect people, societies,
and cultures. The thought is truly a frightful
one. It is reminiscent of Pharaoh turning his
back on God and in turn having his heart
judicially hardened by YHWH (Exod 9:16; cf. Rom 9:17).

Though there is no mention of fire and brimstone
at this point in Romans, there is a process
underway that is not altogether distinct from
hell. If people really want their sinful
lifestyles, then the awesome reality is God will give them over to it.

As C. S. Lewis as aptly remarked, “There are only
two kinds of people in the end: those who say to
God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God
says, ‘Thy will be done.’ All that are in hell chose it.”

The point is, that although Paul is not talking
about hell here, and indeed there is still hope
for these people, there is nonetheless a
continuum between their present existence and
their future plight. If a person really wants God
out of their thoughts, as these people most
definitely do, Love has decided to provide a
place in the end where they can choose to go and
never have to think about him again.

~ Janice
Received on Mon Jan 2 16:59:26 2006